Homosexuality & Morality

greyboi's picture

The point of this thread is to provide those of us on the pro-gay side with ammunition in the face of anti-gay attacks.

Let

JB's picture

Madd

Greling... I think you have gone Madd!

JB
Vice President and Drug Tzar of The Movement To Free Ommpa loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalsitic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates

greyboi's picture

Well...

I guess you could actually say I've gone S.A.D.D, but Mothers Against Drunk Driving doesn't have a group in my area.

:)LOL

JB's picture

MOthers

mothers against drunk driving are just another form of nazism

JB
Vice President and Drug Tzar of The Movement To Free Ommpa loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalsitic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates

DiscSpinnerDude's picture

And the cheering starts...

AMEN. I should bring you to my school, Greling. =D Hehe... thanks a lot for this.

eTgen's picture

hmmm...

I think that you make some very large and gaping holes in this argument. First morality is very personal. Everyone has a different code of morality- and it is not a group that has a morality. What about the Christians, you say? There was this guy named Martin Luther, who basically said that there is a personal relation with God and the person- there needs to be no Pope, as such the 50 million different types of Christians today. From this most of your shaky argument implodes. Who gives a flying fuck what the Bible says? Millions of people do- but they only choose the parts that they like! Is this so wrong? They are happy, apparently that is an important part of your argument- oh but wait, Fundamental Christians can't be happy- oh no, that is horrible. How can they be happy believing something that is so wrong. Why they are hypocrites!

Give me a fucking break, okay. Yea *you* might get pleasure doing unmentionable things with a guy- but why is that better than a Christian following his moral code- yes his, b/c morality is individualistic. Did you say it was better? No, but you imply that somehow your happiness is more important than his, and he should stop tormenting you because that makes you less happy.

You know what the world is a piece of shit, okay. Live with. Not everyone wants to make you the happiest person in the world- in fact there are people in the world who get pleasure out of hurting you. Where does that fit into your "everyone should be happy" argument? It doesn't. Because apparently the world revolves around you.

Stop pretending to be a conservative Greling- you are in a pickle. You want so bad to be a conservative, yet you are like everyone else. A dirty liberal.

latterz,

eTgen
---
CEO, President, Founder, and First member of:

The Movement To Free Ommpa loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalsitic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates

[TMTFOLLFTTROTECDWWAA]

greyboi's picture

Ahem...

"I think that you make some very large and gaping holes in this argument. First morality is very personal. Everyone has a different code of morality- and it is not a group that has a morality."

So you believe in the notion of relative truth... that there is no right and wrong and that everyone is correct in his or her own way? On this line of thought, I guess that would make my argument valid as well.

"There was this guy named Martin Luther, who basically said that there is a personal relation with God and the person- there needs to be no Pope, as such the 50 million different types of Christians today."

This "personal relationship with God" describes a level of intimacy, not a level of veracity. Christians believe in absolute truth. Fundamentalists believe that their version of the truth is the absolute truth. Liberal (theologically) Christians believe that only God has absolute truth. Sorry, but your Martin Luther reference is out of context.

"From this most of your shaky argument implodes. Who gives a flying fuck what the Bible says? Millions of people do- but they only choose the parts that they like! Is this so wrong? They are happy, apparently that is an important part of your argument- oh but wait, Fundamental Christians can't be happy- oh no, that is horrible. How can they be happy believing something that is so wrong. Why they are hypocrites!"

First, fundamentalists look to the bible for absolute truth. They value this over anything else. Most who discover that their interpretation is flawed flee to other ways of interpreting that are more logically sound and more rational. How do I know this? Because I used to be a fundamentalists, that's why. I have been made a much happier person as a result of leaving my denomination.

And it's just the fundamentalists who "pick and choose". Not all Christians do this. Liberal (progessive) Christians (like me) acknowledge that the Bible is flawed and a historical document that contains bias. We don't feel the need to discard it entirely, though. It still holds much value as a source of wisdom. (that would be like throwing out the works of Socrates, Plato and Decartes, just because of some things Nietzeche theorized demostrated a level of contradiction.) We take the Bible much like we take the Illiad, The Odyssey, and Aesop's fables. Maybe you should learn a little more about Christianity before claiming to know everything about it.

"Give me a f**king break, okay. Yea *you* might get pleasure doing unmentionable things with a guy- but why is that better than a Christian following his moral code- yes his, b/c morality is individualistic. Did you say it was better? No, but you imply that somehow your happiness is more important than his, and he should stop tormenting you because that makes you less happy."

"You know what the world is a piece of shit, okay. Live with. Not everyone wants to make you the happiest person in the world- in fact there are people in the world who get pleasure out of hurting you. Where does that fit into your "everyone should be happy" argument? It doesn't. "

After putting unnessary words in my mouth, you said that I said my happiness was somehow "more important" than the Christian fundamentalist's. This is untrue.

For one, if the fundamentalist seeks absolute truth and full adherence to his belief system to be happy and his belief system by definition requires that he treats others with love and respect, he cannot consistently find pleasure (happiness & absolute truth) in treating homosexuals in a fashion opposite of love and respect & nitpicking with bible verses. This would violate his own concept of morality by definition and damage the pathway to absolute truth. If anything, this document has served to benefit the fundamentalist in achieving his version of happiness.

"Because apparently the world revolves around you."

And how do you base this? I never mentioned personal benefits in the argument. I mentioned benefits for homosexuals in general. I guess the world revolves around all gay people then.

"Stop pretending to be a conservative Greling- you are in a pickle. You want so bad to be a conservative, yet you are like everyone else. A dirty liberal."

I'm neither liberal or conservative. I'm a centrist libertarian who decides on the issues at hand. I have both liberal and conservative opinions. You want to so bad to label me, just like everyone else. I can be gay without having to parade myself as "queer". It's my right. I can be black without calling myself "one of the niggas". It's my personal decencey. I can be a Christian without having to describe myself as "fundamentalist" or "bible-believing". It's my integrity.

In other words, I have to right to be myself, and no one but me can take that away.

Don't get your panties in a twist,

Grey.

eTgen's picture

please...

"I think that you make some very large and gaping holes in this argument. First morality is very personal. Everyone has a different code of morality- and it is not a group that has a morality."

So you believe in the notion of relative truth... that there is no right and wrong and that everyone is correct in his or her own way? On this line of thought, I guess that would make my argument valid as well.

Good heavens! How could I have been so stupid! Here you are saying that your argument is right without any proof! Why that is brilliant! I shall have to use it next time. "Well, that makes my argument work too- even though my argument is incomprehensible and a load of utter crap". A true master of debate!

"There was this guy named Martin Luther, who basically said that there is a personal relation with God and the person- there needs to be no Pope, as such the 50 million different types of Christians today."


This "personal relationship with God" describes a level of intimacy, not a level of veracity. Christians believe in absolute truth. Fundamentalists believe that their version of the truth is the absolute truth. Liberal (theologically) Christians believe that only God has absolute truth. Sorry, but your Martin Luther reference is out of context.

Ohh veracity! Wow what a big word, better get out the OED, gosh you are so smart to use a big word- your argument must be right! But honestly yes I know that Christians have an absolute sense of morality- I'm not stupid. I was just pointing out that there are other ways to think rather than yours.

"From this most of your shaky argument implodes. Who gives a flying fuck what the Bible says? Millions of people do- but they only choose the parts that they like! Is this so wrong? They are happy, apparently that is an important part of your argument- oh but wait, Fundamental Christians can't be happy- oh no, that is horrible. How can they be happy believing something that is so wrong. Why they are hypocrites!"


First, fundamentalists look to the bible for absolute truth. They value this over anything else. Most who discover that their interpretation is flawed flee to other ways of interpreting that are more logically sound and more rational. How do I know this? Because I used to be a fundamentalists, that's why. I have been made a much happier person as a result of leaving my denomination.

Of course you have! And there are thousands who don't see the contradiction and are happy being Fundamentalists. *thinks: gosh Greling must not be able to see his own contradictions! Otherwise he would surely flee to a side that will make him happy- he just doesn't know what happiness is- but I do* Please. What a load of crap.


And it's just the fundamentalists who "pick and choose". Not all Christians do this. Liberal (progessive) Christians (like me) acknowledge that the Bible is flawed and a historical document that contains bias. We don't feel the need to discard it entirely, though. It still holds much value as a source of wisdom. (that would be like throwing out the works of Socrates, Plato and Decartes, just because of some things Nietzeche theorized demostrated a level of contradiction.) We take the Bible much like we take the Illiad, The Odyssey, and Aesop's fables. Maybe you should learn a little more about Christianity before claiming to know everything about it.

Decartes hmm can't say I know him, however I do know a Descartes. You truly are a halfwit- I never claimed to know everything about the Bible. But I know that it is flawed. But are you going to deny that fundamentalists can't have a Bible to believe in? Why can't they be stubborn? I see no problem with that. And perhaps you think I don't know what Fundamentalism is- well for you info I live in Alabama- and not the urban area, so don't even tell me that I don't know what they believe! Honestly, stop being all self-righteous! Wow you are a progressive liberal Christian! Big whoop! I could care less! But that type of Christianity is no better than Catholicism, of Southern Baptism. Here is a perfect example of your idiotic hypocritical stance! "Look at me- I am Christian, but the proper Christian, I don't force anyone to think the way I do- but every other type of Christian is a bigoted asshole." That is no better than Baptists saying that you (the gay 'liberal' Christian) are going to hell. Honestly, you are no better than they!

And FYI demostrated is spelt demonstrated.


"Give me a f**king break, okay. Yea *you* might get pleasure doing unmentionable things with a guy- but why is that better than a Christian following his moral code- yes his, b/c morality is individualistic. Did you say it was better? No, but you imply that somehow your happiness is more important than his, and he should stop tormenting you because that makes you less happy."

"You know what the world is a piece of shit, okay. Live with. Not everyone wants to make you the happiest person in the world- in fact there are people in the world who get pleasure out of hurting you. Where does that fit into your "everyone should be happy" argument? It doesn't. "

After putting unnessary words in my mouth, you said that I said my happiness was somehow "more important" than the Christian fundamentalist's. This is untrue.

For one, if the fundamentalist seeks absolute truth and full adherence to his belief system to be happy and his belief system by definition requires that he treats others with love and respect, he cannot consistently find pleasure (happiness & absolute truth) in treating homosexuals in a fashion opposite of love and respect & nitpicking with bible verses. This would violate his own concept of morality by definition and damage the pathway to absolute truth. If anything, this document has served to benefit the fundamentalist in achieving his version of happiness.

Um... NO! Okay look, you seem the have a really strange concept of what a Fundamentalist is. You said you were on- I can not deny it (nor prove it). But here's a piece of news- Fundamentalists are not rational people. The Bible is not rational! Morality is not rational. You think all people have some ground of rationality in them. NEWS FLASH: some people are not rational! This is total spin on the liberal Christians part- NEWS FLASH: Christianity is not rational. If you attempt to take the Bible literally you run into contradictions! The Fundamentalists accept this contradictions on faith!

"Because apparently the world revolves around you."


And how do you base this? I never mentioned personal benefits in the argument. I mentioned benefits for homosexuals in general. I guess the world revolves around all gay people then.

yes. You are no better than the Fundamentalists. Why can't they believe what they want and you what you want. *no no! This is wrong! They are wrong and I am right! For I was once on there side, and now I am my own. That means that I am right* Please! The world does not think like you! Live with it!

"Stop pretending to be a conservative Greling- you are in a pickle. You want so bad to be a conservative, yet you are like everyone else. A dirty liberal."


I'm neither liberal or conservative. I'm a centrist libertarian who decides on the issues at hand. I have both liberal and conservative opinions. You want to so bad to label me, just like everyone else. I can be gay without having to parade myself as "queer". It's my right. I can be black without calling myself "one of the niggas". It's my personal decencey. I can be a Christian without having to describe myself as "fundamentalist" or "bible-believing". It's my integrity.

In other words, I have to right to be myself, and no one but me can take that away.

I believe it was you who labeled yourself as a "Liberal (progessive) Christians (like me) ". Yes be yourself. And let other people be themselves too!

Don't get your panties in a twist,

I can do with my panties what I please.

***

Look here it is-
You are arguing that Christianity (Fundamentalism) is flawed and that they make ridiculous claims. I do not deny that. But than you think you can change them- well I am sorry but you can not. Bigots will be bigots. Reason does not compute with the Bible. You are simply turning the tables. You want to say that you know it all (oh come on don't deny it- you *know* you are right) well guess what? Fundamentalists *know* they are right.

Everyone has contradictions. Live with them. Life suck. Live with it. Can't deal with the fact that some people HATE fags? Well have you every thought about how some people HATE Fundamentalists? Yes you are one. Oh come on, you know you hate them- I'm not some moron halfwit! Why is your hate justified, and the people who hate fags not?

Grey, I am sorry. But you will never understand anything I have just posted. Trying to convince you of reason- to be able to see your own flaws is like trying to convince A Southern Baptist Priest that Jesus was not the son of God.

For some, there is no hope.

tsch

greyboi's picture

Umm...

"Good heavens! How could I have been so stupid! Here you are saying that your argument is right without any proof! Why that is brilliant! I shall have to use it next time. "Well, that makes my argument work too- even though my argument is incomprehensible and a load of utter crap". A true master of debate!"

Apparently, you didn't catch my blatant sarcasm.

"Ohh veracity! Wow what a big word, better get out the OED, gosh you are so smart to use a big word- your argument must be right! But honestly yes I know that Christians have an absolute sense of morality- I'm not stupid. I was just pointing out that there are other ways to think rather than yours."

I never said that my way was the only way of thinking. For you to conclude that you know what is in my head is pure arrogance.

"Of course you have! And there are thousands who don't see the contradiction and are happy being Fundamentalists. *thinks: gosh Greling must not be able to see his own contradictions! Otherwise he would surely flee to a side that will make him happy- he just doesn't know what happiness is- but I do* Please. What a load of crap."

If there are contradictions, show me. If you know the claim to know the path of happiness, please elaborate. Most people are looking for this element in their lives. All I did was help the fundamentalist achieve his goal of finding the truth of things. Whether or not the fundamentalist is happy or not will be determined by the vervcity of his or her views of happiness.

"Decartes hmm can't say I know him, however I do know a Descartes"

Descartes. Does spelling really make that much of a difference if you still got the general idea?

"You truly are a halfwit- I never claimed to know everything about the Bible. But I know that it is flawed."

Perhaps your perceptions of things is just flawed. What you define as flawed, the fundamentalist defines as perfect. Afterall, as you claimed, "morality is very personal".

"But are you going to deny that fundamentalists can't have a Bible to believe in? Why can't they be stubborn? I see no problem with that. "

Say that the Bible contains error is not saying that one should not believe in the Bible. There is a big difference. Presyberians believe that the Bible contains error, but they still believe in it.

"And perhaps you think I don't know what Fundamentalism is- well for you info I live in Alabama- and not the urban area, so don't even tell me that I don't know what they believe!"

I live in Southern California. I grew up near Poway district in San Diego and now I live a few miles from Arcadia, the national hot bed from fundmentalist radio. I was also raised as a fundamentalist in the conservative Pentecostal and evagelical Southern Baptist traditions. So, I guess I can say that my experience is very much first hand. Fundamentalism isn't limited to the Bible belt. It's real growth started in the California areas when they got access to powerful radio equiptment (1920's) and media outlets for televagelism (1980's).

"Honestly, stop being all self-righteous!"

I never said that my biblical position was somehow better than the fundamentalists'. I simply said that those on the anti-gay side had better come up with better arguments. I never said that their argument was invalid-- just incomplete.

"Wow you are a progressive liberal Christian! Big whoop! I could care less! But that type of Christianity is no better than Catholicism, of Southern Baptism. "

I agree. I never said it was. By, the way, please explain to me what kind of Catholicism can be found in Southern Baptism. Last time I checked, Southern Bapists viewed catholics as "mary worshipers" and "of the devil".

"Here is a perfect example of your idiotic hypocritical stance! "Look at me- I am Christian, but the proper Christian, I don't force anyone to think the way I do- but every other type of Christian is a bigoted asshole." That is no better than Baptists saying that you (the gay 'liberal' Christian) are going to hell. Honestly, you are no better than they!"

I don't ever remember saying that in my text. You are obviously imagining things.

"And FYI demostrated is spelt demonstrated."

Thank you, Oxford English Dictionary.

:)

"Um... NO! Okay look, you seem the have a really strange concept of what a Fundamentalist is. You said you were on- I can not deny it (nor prove it). But here's a piece of news- Fundamentalists are not rational people."

Please demonstrate exactly how they are irrational. This may merely be your opinion of things. I know many fundamentalists who would view YOU as being the irrational one.

"The Bible is not rational! Morality is not rational."

Nothing but your subjective perspective of things...

"You think all people have some ground of rationality in them."

Did I say this, or did you put this in my mouth as well?

NEWS FLASH: some people are not rational!"

How do you base this? Are you including yourself in that crowd?

"This is total spin on the liberal Christians part- NEWS FLASH: Christianity is not rational. If you attempt to take the Bible literally you run into contradictions! The Fundamentalists accept this contradictions on faith! "

Fundamentalists do not comprise the entirety of Christianity. In fact, they make up a rather vocal minority of the world's population.

"yes. You are no better than the Fundamentalists. Why can't they believe what they want and you what you want."

I never said that they didn't have the right to believe what they believe. You apparently assumed that I said this. However, let me ask you this:

If you had a friend who you knew was in the dark and you had the light would you show your friend the light or would you join him in the dark?

"*no no! This is wrong! They are wrong and I am right! For I was once on there side, and now I am my own. That means that I am right* Please! The world does not think like you! Live with it!"

Your parody is quite misrepresenting. You can't read my mind! Live with it!

"I can do with my panties what I please."

It was just advice, but if you like wearing them that way, that's fine with me. They're your panties, afterall. :)

"You are arguing that Christianity (Fundamentalism) is flawed and that they make ridiculous claims."

Nowhere is that mentioned in my essay. I actually said, "The point of this thread is to provide those of us on the pro-gay side with ammunition in the face of anti-gay attacks." What you do with the ammunition is up to you.

"But than you think you can change them- well I am sorry but you can not. Bigots will be bigots. Reason does not compute with the Bible. "

Ex-fundamentalist, in the flesh here, baby. Change is possible. Religion is one thing we know to be a choice. LOL

"You are simply turning the tables. You want to say that you know it all (oh come on don't deny it- you *know* you are right) well guess what? Fundamentalists *know* they are right."

I never said I was right, but do you *know* the above statement is right?

"Everyone has contradictions. Live with them. Life suck. Live with it. Can't deal with the fact that some people HATE fags? Well have you every thought about how some people HATE Fundamentalists? Yes you are one.Oh come on, you know you hate them- I'm not some moron halfwit! Why is your hate justified, and the people who hate fags not?"

I don't HATE fundamentalists. I feel deep symapathy and sorrow for them. My mother and stepfather still are fundamentalists. My sister, however, changed her ideas about me when she read this paper. I showed her another I wrote on the Bible in general and she decided that she had better explore other options. Now she's exploring Wicca and Celtic Paganism. She says it's the best thing that has every happened to her, and her and I have never been so close.

"Grey, I am sorry. But you will never understand anything I have just posted. Trying to convince you of reason- to be able to see your own flaws is like trying to convince A Southern Baptist Priest that Jesus was not the son of God."

Southern Baptists have "priests"? I thought they had "pastors" and "deacons". I never said that Jesus wasn't the son of God. Actually, I believe that we are all sons and daughters of God. I can see where the "priest" would be insulted, apart from his new title.

"For some, there is no hope."

For some, hope beings with confronting themselves.

With solace,

Grey

eTgen's picture

Apparently, you didn't catch

Apparently, you didn't catch my blatant sarcasm.

It must have slipped through my net. *examines net* Oh yes there appears to be a large hole in here.

I never said that my way was the only way of thinking. For you to conclude that you know what is in my head is pure arrogance.

Yes. It is.

If there are contradictions, show me.

We both must have sarcasm detection nets with holes in them. I should not be surprised if you purchased them at the same store

If you know the claim to know the path of happiness, please elaborate.

My path to happiness is quite different than any others. Happiness, like many things in life is subjective.

Most people are looking for this element in their lives. All I did was help the fundamentalist achieve his goal of finding the truth of things.

Not everyone is an Epicureanist.

Whether or not the fundamentalist is happy or not will be determined by the vervcity of his or her views of happiness.

Exactly. So why try and "change" them or "enlighten" them?

Descartes. Does spelling really make that much of a difference if you still got the general idea?

Spelling shows the amount of effort you put into something.

Perhaps your perceptions of things is just flawed. What you define as flawed, the fundamentalist defines as perfect. Afterall, as you claimed, "morality is very personal".

Yes. This is my point. Every type of Christianity is different. Every type of morality is different. And flawed against what? A sense of the absolute? That I hold, does not exist.

Say that the Bible contains error is not saying that one should not believe in the Bible. There is a big difference. Presyberians believe that the Bible contains error, but they still believe in it.

I realize this. But people have different interpretations of the Bible- find different errors. I think we arguing the same point here.

I live in Southern California. I grew up near Poway district in San Diego and now I live a few miles from Arcadia, the national hot bed from fundmentalist radio. I was also raised as a fundamentalist in the conservative Pentecostal and evagelical Southern Baptist traditions. So, I guess I can say that my experience is very much first hand. Fundamentalism isn't limited to the Bible belt. It's real growth started in the California areas when they got access to powerful radio equiptment (1920's) and media outlets for televagelism (1980's).

Thank you for clarifying. I did not know that.

I never said that my biblical position was somehow better than the fundamentalists'. I simply said that those on the anti-gay side had better come up with better arguments. I never said that their argument was invalid-- just incomplete.

You can never argue against faith. Interpretation is a thing of faith, and no element of reason will convert them otherwise.

I agree. I never said it was. By, the way, please explain to me what kind of Catholicism can be found in Southern Baptism. Last time I checked, Southern Bapists viewed catholics as "mary worshipers" and "of the devil".

My fault. "of" was suppose to be "or". Perhaps I did not put enough time into this post as I should have. :-P

I don't ever remember saying that in my text. You are obviously imagining things.

I inferred this from your wording. Since you believe that Fundamentalists do not have strong enough arguments, they are ipso facto wrong. Perhaps last night my imagination was on the extreme (perhaps that would explain that dream...)

Thank you, Oxford English Dictionary.
:)

Any time.
:)

Please demonstrate exactly how they are irrational. This may merely be your opinion of things. I know many fundamentalists who would view YOU as being the irrational one.

Human nature is irrationality. I never said I was rational.

I am often reminded of the scene in Waiting for Godot

VLADIMIR:

Try and put it on again.
ESTRAGON:
(examining his foot). I'll air it for a bit.
VLADIMIR:
There's man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet.

Also I reminded of Notes from the Underground by Dostoevsky

I am a sick man. ... I am a spiteful man. I am an unattractive man. I believe my liver is diseased. However, I know nothing at all about my disease, and do not know for certain what ails me. I don't consult a doctor for it, and never have, though I have a respect for medicine and doctors.

But perhaps this is a difference of philisophical opinions. I tend to come from a more nihilistic, existential camp. Where perhaps you come from a much more optimistic camp. I could go on to explain, but I shall simply refer you to such great philosophers as Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, and Kierkegaard.

The Bible is not rational! Morality is not rational

Nothing but your subjective perspective of things...

I fear not even that is rational.

Did I say this, or did you put this in my mouth as well?

Perhaps. And if I did, I recommend not swallowing them. They may give you gas. :P

NEWS FLASH: some people are not rational!

How do you base this? Are you including yourself in that crowd?

I am perhaps the most irrational person out there. But please don't tell my econ professor- I don't want to fail.

Fundamentalists do not comprise the entirety of Christianity. In fact, they make up a rather vocal minority of the world's population.

Yes. But there are still contradictions with the Bible.

I never said that they didn't have the right to believe what they believe. You apparently assumed that I said this.

You seem to infer that you have knowledge that they lack, and that you want to show them the way. I want to simply ask you:

How do you know that you are *right*?

However, let me ask you this:
If you had a friend who you knew was in the dark and you had the light would you show your friend the light or would you join him in the dark?

Well Mr. Plato, if that really is your name, If my friend wishes to remain in the dark and refuses to move into the light. I would let him stay in the dark. If darkness begets happiness for him, a lightness begets joy for me- than why, and how am I justified, by convincing him that he is wrong? Convince the Underground Man to go to a Doctor? Such a task, I fear, is impossible.

Your parody is quite misrepresenting. You can't read my mind! Live with it!

To think about what other people think is the key to humor, for such can never be known. :)

It was just advice, but if you like wearing them that way, that's fine with me. They're your panties, afterall. :)

Thank you for the advice. It has been taken under consideration

Nowhere is that mentioned in my essay. I actually said, "The point of this thread is to provide those of us on the pro-gay side with ammunition in the face of anti-gay attacks." What you do with the ammunition is up to you.

My ammunition is deafness. Perhaps that is weak. But as I have said before, no matter what logic you possess, in the face of faith one might as well be attempting to break into a city surrounded by a 12 foot high 3 foot wide stone wall with dead hamsters.

Ex-fundamentalist, in the flesh here, baby. Change is possible. Religion is one thing we know to be a choice. LOL

Change can happen. But one does not awaken in the next morning and suddenly change faith (I say perhaps). But for those that change- there is the element of questioning. You are gay, a perfect reason to question you beliefs. But for those who do not have that catalysts- I say again change is near to impossible.

You are simply turning the tables. You want to say that you know it all (oh come on don't deny it- you *know* you are right) well guess what? Fundamentalists *know* they are right.

I never said I was right, but do you *know* the above statement is right?

I don't. How do I know that knowledge is not absolute? For such a statement implies that the only thing true about it is that it is not. A paradox. A contradiction. An irrationality. Life.

I don't HATE fundamentalists. I feel deep symapathy and sorrow for them. My mother and stepfather still are fundamentalists. My sister, however, changed her ideas about me when she read this paper. I showed her another I wrote on the Bible in general and she decided that she had better explore other options. Now she's exploring Wicca and Celtic Paganism. She says it's the best thing that has every happened to her, and her and I have never been so close.

I am very happy that your sister could change. But some people (gosh I repeat this ad infinitium, I apologize) are not easily swayed. Do you really feel sorry for all fundamentalists? Or just your parents? Feeling sorry for one person, I can understand. Feeling sorrow for a group of abstract people (the fundamentalists, the Jews, the homophobes &c) is just plain pathetic. perhaps it is because I am a heartless bastard. But at least I can admit to that.

Southern Baptists have "priests"? I thought they had "pastors" and "deacons". I never said that Jesus wasn't the son of God. Actually, I believe that we are all sons and daughters of God. I can see where the "priest" would be insulted, apart from his new title.

hehe. Priests. Pastors. Mox nix. Coming from a area of many different types of Christianity- I get confused on the official titles. Perhaps had I put more effort into this post mistakes such as this would not have happened. In the words of famous politicians everywhere: "Mistakes were made".

For some, hope beings with confronting themselves.


Hope sole remain'd within, nor took her flight,

linds's picture

hey...

I am perhaps the most irrational person out there. But please don't tell my econ professor- I don't want to fail.

So, sleep-deprived, and over-Chaucered, I find this to be the funniest statement ever -- can I quote you dear?

~Linds

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Special Envoy to Tea-Drinking Nations for The Movement To Free Oompa Loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalistic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates

eTgen's picture

Of course

By all means:)

latterz,

eTgen
---
CEO, President, Founder, and First member of:

The Movement To Free Ommpa loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalsitic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates

[TMTFOLLFTTROTECDWWAA]

greyboi's picture

:-P

You have a twisted sense of humor, and I like that. :)

linds's picture

well...

And it's just the fundamentalists who "pick and choose". Not all Christians do this. Liberal (progessive) Christians (like me) acknowledge that the Bible is flawed and a historical document that contains bias. We don't feel the need to discard it entirely, though. It still holds much value as a source of wisdom.

If you "acknowledge that the Bible is flawed" and make space for it within its proper historical context, how can you possibly take it whole? (This is not rhetorical. I want to know.) And if you don't take it in in its entirety, you're "picking and choosing," aren't you? "I'll go with verse A, but I reject verse B, because..."

See Milton's Areopagitica for more on the positive value of "picking and choosing" in an informed way. Don't bash fundies because of their selective viewpoint -- even if your understanding of the Bible and Christianity is more "educated," it's still selective.

~Linds

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Special Envoy to Tea-Drinking Nations for The Movement To Free Oompa Loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalistic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates

greyboi's picture

Let me explain...

"If you "acknowledge that the Bible is flawed" and make space for it within its proper historical context, how can you possibly take it whole?"

There is a difference in "taking the Bible" in terms of recognition and taking it in terms of application. Every Christian picks and chooses in terms of application. However, some (esp., fundamentalists) will spout verses at you, while refusing to recognize that there are other contradictory elements. Liberal (speaking in terms of theology) Christians know that the Bible isn't wholly true, and in this we recognize that there are also contradictions in it as well. Still, some (esp., fundamentalists), on the other hand, choose to recognize strategic Bible verses, while discarding others that contradict their moralism. For them, everything is cut-and-paste to your advantage.

linds's picture

Thanks!

Hey, thanks for clarifying. I do appreciate it.

The application of the Bible (of any text) is always a subjective process. So even a liberal Christian (theologically speaking), who recognizes the inherent contradictions of the text, can and does "cut-and-paste" for individual advantage (or if you like, individual interpretation).

I'm writing a paper that's dealing with a different aspect of Christian theology (as articulated in Chaucer) in a different way, but your thread's prompted some thinking that may apply to it, so thanks for the discussion.

~Linds

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Special Envoy to Tea-Drinking Nations for The Movement To Free Oompa Loompa Land From The Tyrannical Rule Of The Evil Capitalistic Despot Willy Wonka And Associates