Pro-Life?

Icarus's picture

Just a question...

how many of you are pro-life?

what's your opinion on abortion?

how many of you are pro-choice?

what's your opinion on abortion?

i'm pro-life, but i don't think it should be made illegal, i can't tell you what to do with your body, but it personally makes me sick that you'd do something like that to an unborn child.

so what's your deal?

joemondragon's picture

I'm pro-choice. But but what

I'm pro-choice. But but what needs to be remembered is that doesn't mean that I'm pro-abortion. I would like to see fewer abortions, but I would rather see it as a woman's choice whether or not she has a baby. And as for the baby, if it were born it would probably not lead a very good life. Trust me on this one. I have seen what happens to those that are born whose mothers don't want them. It's not pretty.

"A friend is someone who bails you out of jail; a best friend is someone who stands in the cell next to you and says 'that was freakin' awesome'"
-Dr. Jamie Morris

gaynow's picture

pro-choice

I'm pro-choice. BTW, if you don't want abortion outlawed, then you're pro-choice: you think women should be allowed to choose, you're pro-choice, even if you wouldn't have an abortion yourself. And I have to say that calling anti-abortionists "pro-life" is just twisted and manipulative and makes it sound like you're this gigantic baby-killer if you don't think a bunch of rich men somewhere in Washington should decide what every woman in the U.S. does with her body. Never mind that these are the same men who forward abstinence-only sex-ed programs so all the women who they don't allow to have abortions can't protect themselves and get pregnant in the first place. Abortion shouldn't be used wantonly, I admit, but a fetus is not a baby. If the child's life or the mother's life is threatened, or if the child is unwanted--rape, bad decision, whatever--and will lead a bad life or ruin the mother's, then abortion is definitely justified, because you're not taking a fully-formed life. It's like saying that using spermicidal condoms kill babies. Okay, not really, but it's along the same lines. (The scary thing is, I'm pretty sure some people believe this.)

On a slightly different note, what are people's views on contraceptives and the morning-after pill?

underdarkness's picture

What is murder?

What is murder?
When you take someone's life.

What are you doing when you abort a fetus?
Taking away the life that would result had the fetus not been aborted.

I won't get into some grand argument over this because in the end, it's still an argument online, in which case nobody wins and two people walk away pissed off... and slightly stupider.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

5thstory's picture

I'm pro-choice, until the

I'm pro-choice, until the third month, when the fetus is more developed. In case the baby is deformed, the mother's life at risk, of the baby is unwanted, I think abortion is totally acceptable (if not required in some cases). Although I think it is important to let women choose, I would want to see less and less abortions every day. Another reason for me to be pro-choice, is that people is doing it anyways, and between having a teen girl doing it illegally, in a crumby, unhealthy, dangerous place, and a girl doing it in a hospital, the hospital is a lot safer, and better. A little outside the point, I also think that a doctor's right to not do things should be specially respected with abortion. If a doctor does not wish to do an abortion, the wish should be respected and another doctor should do it. About contraceptives, I've got no problem with them and think they are a smart, safe and very reccomendable way of avoiding problems. Again, in people is going to have sex, it is better if they know what they are getting into, and use the right protection. The morning-after pill? well, conceptually, I've got no problems with it, it is a precaution, and in a rape scenario a good way to avoid further suffering. Medically (remember, I'm not a physician or anything, just 16 years old) it is a disaster, alters hormones, can cause severe problems and should only be given in a hospital, under doctor's care.

-Ruby-'s picture

abortion needs to be 100% legal, safe, and accessible EVERYWHERE

"Pro-Life" is the stupidest term EVER.
people who oppose abortion & claim to be "Pro-Life" are implying that those of us who support a woman's right to choose abortion are basically just "Pro-Death"
WTF???
Oh and the thing inside a pregant woman's tummy during the first trimester (1st 3 months, when most abortions are performed), it's NOT an "unborn child". it's not a "baby". it's a FETUS. it has no rights. the rights lie 100% in the hands of the woman, to decide whether or not to allow that thing inside her to eventually develop into a human child.
it doesn't matter what the "circumstances" are- whether it was a failure of birth control, rape, bad decision... regardless, the woman must have the right to choose. her body, her life.
damn right i'm a feminist. MY BODY IS THE ONLY THING I OWN.
if u take away my rights to control my body, i have nothing. may as well be living in the middle-east, covering my body from head-to-toe, being a slave/bitch to the patriarchy.
you know what MAKES ME SICK??? the amount of children out there suffering because they were brought into a world where nobody gives a fuck about them. you know when people should start opposing abortion? On the day when women stop giving birth and leaving their babies to die in dumpsters. when no more babies are born addicted to crack, or suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome the rest of their life. when there is not a single child in "foster care" or "care of the state." when every child has a safe and healthy home. when white middle-class couples are happy to adopt a black/hispanic/otherwise "ethnic" child, or a child who has a disability. Until that day, pro-choice all the way.

Imstillhere's picture

^^ i agree :) very well said

^^ i agree :) very well said Tamar! XD

Leisa's picture

Way to go Ruby

I couldn't have said it better myself!

gaynow's picture

yaaay!!!

*applause*

joemondragon's picture

Here here. "A friend is

Here here.

"A friend is someone who bails you out of jail; a best friend is someone who stands in the cell next to you and says 'that was freakin' awesome'"
-Dr. Jamie Morris

underdarkness's picture

You know what MAKES ME

You know what MAKES ME SICK??? The amount of people like you who couldn't give two shits about the life of a child.

If you are taking away someone's life, current or potential, it's murder. The women who have abortions are generally selfish, have no health problems, were not raped, did not engage in incest and have no reason to abort the child other than the fact that they do not want it.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

-Ruby-'s picture

when u ASSUME, u make an ASS out of U and ME...

...actually, u just make an ass out of U.

i do care about the lives of children. very much so. i work with kids who have disabilities. ADD/ADHD, autism, learning disorders, and other physical and mental challenges. i work with these children so that i can help them to have better lives.
what have U ever done to improve the life of a child?

ur generalizations about the women who have abortions are simply ridiculous. there are several reasons why they abort, most of which have nothing to do with "not wanting" a child. i personally know young women who have had abortions. in their cases, aborting the fetus was the most UNSELFISH thing they could possibly do.

i don't wanna get all feminazi on ur ass, but u realize that as a man, u will never know what it feels like to be pregnant. to carry a growing being in ur body for 9 months, developing an indescribable bond with it. to be hated, ridiculed, called a slut, because u are pregnant yet young/single/unmarried. the pain, stress, and health-risks of pregnancy. the pain of childbirth. holding a baby to ur chest, nursing it, and then having it taken away from you. or raising the child, as a single parent, in an physically/psychologically unstable environment. u will never understand, so don't judge.

for someone who questions the disproportionate authority of "white, heterosexual, rich, christian men", ur comment makes u sound very far from liberal. so i'm just calling u on that.

peace & respect dude...

underdarkness's picture

When you use horrible spelling and cliches...

you look like an ass.

Your statement that I, as a man, cannot have an opinion on abortion is complete bullshit. How about we tell all straight people that they can no longer have opinions on gay marriage because they'll never know what it's like to be gay, or tell black people that they could have no say in the civil rights movement in the 50's because they were too "biased" and will never understand white people.

It's too bad that insane femdoms like you make all liberals look like idiots who want to abort the world to keep the population down.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

-Ruby-'s picture

DUDE...

you actually tried to insult me by calling me "insane" & "femdom"???
that's funny XD
but i'm curious about why you feel the need to personally attack me by calling me names.
there are many things i could call you back, but i never will.
i don't stoop to name-calling.
cuz my momma taught me better than that.
end of discussion.
peace out bro.

jeff's picture

Yeah...

Let's stick to stating/supporting personal opinions, not personal attacks.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

Add me on MySpace!

underdarkness's picture

DUDE

Didn't really mean to offend (well, I did at the time, but erm.. not anymore) , I just wrote the comment when I was pissed about something entirely unrelated, so sorry 'bout that.

But to conclude this, DAMN I'm glad my mother didn't abort me. Good thing yours didn't abort you either, otherwise we wouldn't be having this lovely conversation about death, SM and name calling.

Now, all we need to do is legalize gay marriage and adoption and then abortion won't be needed so much.

Anyway, let me word my opinion in a more coherent way:

I really hate the fact that a lot of women use abortion simply as a contraceptive. I think if you go get pregnant, know the possible consequences of that (whether it be STDs or pregnancy) you should have to deal with that. There will always be those incredibly rare abortions needed when a woman is raped or engages in incest, but as I said, those are extremely rare.

If a mother doesn't want a child, "This world is a sucky place to raise a child" just isn't a good enough excuse to have an abortion. I think it should be limited to medical complications, rape and incest. Period. There are tons of couples who want to adopt but cannot. Why is it the right of an irresponsible teen to say that her fetus doesn't have the right to form into a living human being?

Now, about your comment about me being liberal.

I hardly believe that this one political belief of mine makes me conservative, as there are plenty of other issues on the political spectrum. It's unfortunate that you would voice such an opinion, likely making some impressionable young liberal think that you can't be liberal unless you agree with everything you do. Also, how does my signature specify any political party? It only suggests that I'm gay and not Christian.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

Lol-taire's picture

You wouldn't tell that to my

You wouldn't tell that to my mother.

Sometimes people take precautions and still pregnancy happens. I come from a very stable, happy family. A fifth child would have ruined it because my mum was already overstretched and although financially we could have a supported a fifth child, my mum just didn't have the will or the emotional resources left to raise another child. Each child is a lifetime job . When you give birth you bring into the world someone who will be dependent on you for life.

You may say adoption is possible, but medically the pregnancy would have been complicated and dangerous, and the emotional toll of parting with a your child is much worse than aborting an embryo which whatever way you look at it is literally just a heap of cells. Also, how would she have explained what was going to happen to four children under the age of 12? How would we be able to believe her when she said she loved us unconditionally if she'd given away our brother or sister?

Abortion isn't nice, but sometimes it's the best option. It's not just teenagers and it's not just people who've fucked up on the contraception. My sensible, responsible friend had pregnancy scare a while back (with her nice, long term boyfriends in a committed relationship) because a condom broke. Jesus, my little brother was born because my mum was on the pill and she had a tummy upset. Things happen.

Anyway following your argument to it's logical extremes; that potential life equals life then why is any contraception in general moral?
And is the morning after pill wrong? Because at that point the zygote possesses all the genetic material that would make it a human.

And anyway the type of woman who would use abortion as a contraceptive (if they exist at all and I imagine their numbers are very few) shouldn't be having children anyway.
And what you forget is that the later an abortion is performed the more unpleasant a medical procedure it is. People don't have abortions for hijinks.

You would object to forced marriage, but motherhood is as intimate as marriage- more so I believe. Forced motherhood is not reasonable when we have the means to prevent it.

underdarkness's picture

I don't believe in life at

I don't believe in life at motility. Sperm is just a cell that has the potential to fertilize an egg, though the incredibly vast majority of sperm cells will never fertilize an egg, just as the vast majority of eggs will never be fertilized. Contraception is necessary to prevent a pregnancy, absolutely. Contraception is not abortion, so you suggesting that I must believe this is cheap political rhetoric that people use to bring people to their own side. It only works when you're dealing with people who have no base of political ideology.

Also, forced marriage has nothing to do with this.

If a woman is raped and happens to get pregnant, she just waited too long to have something done about it. There's the morning after pill, she can get, essentially, scraped out, etc. Arguing this fact is difficult because lots of women lie about being raped because it's an easy thing to lie about. I'm not saying that all women who are raped lie, but it's just very easy for them to lie about it which makes it very difficult to say, "She can have an abortion because she was raped, but SHE can't because she wasn't."

You state that child birth can have complications and is dangerous, but so is abortion. Abortion, if done in a facility, is not a natural occurrence. A woman is usually much better off having the child. If the doctors know during the pregnancy that the baby will kill the mother, she should have a decision on whether or not to abort that child. If the child is going to die anyway, well, there's not much else you could do besides have an abortion.

Personally, I think that abortions should be legal up to the middle of the first trimester. However, I think that if there is a man in the relationship who is completely willing to raise that baby without its mother, he should be allowed to adopt it. It's just selfish for women to abort a potential child when there's someone willing to take the child in.

As I am telling most people in this discussion, be glad that you weren't aborted. You wouldn't be having this lovely discussion with me right now if you had been.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

wilma wonka's picture

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT!!!!!!!

"child birth can have complications and is dangerous, but so is abortion. "
where did you get that idea?!

there are an average number of 6.6 deaths due to childbirth per 100,000 births, 1.1 deaths caused by penicilin per 100,000 injections and only 0.6 deaths caused by abortion per 100,000 abortions every year. Therefore, abortion is not only very safe but also safer than childbirth or penicilin. The idea that abortion poses a threat to a womens physical or mental health is absolutly ludicrus. Instead of harming a women's mental health, most women feel relief after an abortion and their mental health is generaly no worse than women who have never had an abortion.

What is dangerous is having illegal abortions. There were 200 deaths from abortions in 1965 when abortion was illegal. When Roe v. Wade made abortion legal in 1973 there were only about 45 deaths from abortions. Making abortion illegal endangers women's health a lot more than geting an abortion does.
-Abortion in Women's Lives by the Guttmacher Institute

"gay: cheerful and lighthearted; merry." - The American Heritage Dictionary.

Lol-taire's picture

No what I said was in the

No what I said was in the case study I am using (my mother) to contintinue the pregnancy would have been dangerous. Not life threatening (with modern medicine) but very uncomfortable and requiring a long period of hospitalisation.

And to keep harping on about her is necessary so you can get it into your head that individuals have abortions for a myriad of reasons. Not just for the rhetorical extremes tarted out by either political lobby.

"Personally, I think that abortions should be legal up to the middle of the first trimester."

OK but think about that. A young woman especially may not even realise she's pregnant by that point (or will have only just realised). If you're trying for a baby or you expect you might be pregnant you'll probably know for sure at about four weeks.
If you have irregular periods (or you're spotting which is common during early pregnancy) the penny might not drop until quite a lot later especially if it's your first pregnancy and you don't know the signs. And if you didn't suspect you might be pregnant you're now left with barely a fortnight (or less or no option) to make what could be the biggest decision of you life- whether to have a baby.

And the other thing is that for most women once you've given birth (whether you keep the child or not) you are a mother.
If I were to get pregnant tomorrow (clearly I won't) once I'd had the baby even if I never saw it again- and I know you can have open adoptions- it would kill me. Financially, emotionally and practically I'm am not ready to have a child, but I couldn't physically give a child away. It would ruin my ambitions, it would mean raising the child without any of the experience or knowledge of adult life, no money and a lot of resentment that would handicap the both of us. I would be a bad mother. But I couldn't give away a live baby- think about what you're asking women to do. But I could have an early abortion, I could do that not easily but without regrets.

I'll admit to a few cheap shots- but your 'aren't you glad not to have been aborted' is cheapest.
I'm glad I was a wanted baby who was raised by parents who love me and provided for me. That's what made me who I am, not the mere fact I am alive. An embryo is still just genetic material being expressed. A person is what the world makes them and everyone should be born into a world that welcomes them.

Maternity should be the ultimate symbol of the pro-choice lobby because there is nothing as perfect or as wonderful as a wanted baby, not necessarily planned but wanted.

ForeverEndedToday's picture

Comment for Underdarkness

I don't think it's fair to say "If a woman is raped and happens to get pregnant, she just waited too long to have something done about it." Being raped is a highly traumatic experience, and the percentage of rape victims who report what happened to them to the police is only 41% (here's the source if you want it: http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html ). If more than half don't want to tell authorities that they were raped I highly doubt they would want to see a doctor to ask for a morning after pill. Especially since doctors are trained for signs of rape and abuse, and most likely would pick up on the victim's emotional instability. Even though the morning after pill allows for three days after unprotected sex, I still don't think the 59% could recover that easily, and even if they did manage to go see a doctor a simple exam can tell if a woman has been raped or not. Also making the lying about being raped a little hard to prove. I don't mean to sound accusative if you think that was the tone of this paragraph, I'm simply offering my opinion.

rowie's picture

to UNDERDARKNESS

1 in 20 women are raped in their life time and 1 in 2 experience some sort of violence/abuse/mental or physical torture. many rapists dont use contraception and many women fall pregnant. i really dont think calling these cases "EXTREMELY RARE" is acurate.

--i used to be a tomboy, now im a full grown lesbian--

**you must be the change you wish to see in the world**

underdarkness's picture

Where'd you pull those

Where'd you pull those statistics from, the collective ass at Fox News?

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

rowie's picture

actually

well seen as i dont have a TV and we dont actually get fox news over here anyway... ummm... NO. i wrote an essay on it while i was at school so they are proper backed up figures thanks. perhaps you should get yours straight. unimaginable numbers of women go through these things, just because your contact with them may be limited doesnt mean they dont exist.

--i used to be a tomboy, now im a full grown lesbian--

**you must be the change you wish to see in the world**

Lol-taire's picture

pro-choice

I found out the other day that my mother had an abortion a few years ago.

She's had four children and there were complications at the end of her pregnancy with my brother (placental abruption etc). He was unplanned but not unwanted, but after he was born my dad got a vasectomy. Anyway, it didn't work properly* and my mum got pregnant again. So she had an abortion.

The thing is even grown up women, who've been married forever and ever and use birth control and live normal lives sometimes need abortions. It's not just desperate teenagers, rape victims or the irresponsible who may need to terminate a pregnancy.

And although there may be some debate as to the exact point at which a foetus should be considered as possessing human rights, in the first trimester it certainly doesn't.

Interestingly the religious concept that life begins at fertilisation is a modern one. It's far from a unanimous belief even in Christianity. It's not a theologically certain concept and it's not a scientifically supported concept. So to legislate both the lives of women and children (and men to a lesser extent) around it is absurd and damaging.

* she wasn't having an affair or anything scandalous. Sometimes they just don't work.

flugzeug712's picture

Pro-Death Baby Killer

I've been called just about everything so that should explain the title. I believe it is the woman's choice. In my opinion, even if the fetus is in the shape of a baby and what not, it is not technically alive until it is completely living on its own... no help from mommy. So I don't see it as "killing"

yep_im_a_stalker's picture

Pro-DOWHATYOUWANT

I don't personally agree with abortion, but "If you don't like abortion--don't get one." Let women do what they feel is ok with their own body.

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tayz's picture

Pro-Life

I'M PRO LIFE.

By outlawing abortion, you are destroying the life of a woman by forcing her to carry the burden of a child which she may not be able to support.

I guess in most eye's I'm Pro-Choice.
We could however, switch around the 'labels' and it'd still work just the same.

Pro-Choice:
It's the GOVERNMENTS choice as to whether or not a woman can terminate her pregnancy.

Pro-Life:
Abortion = Giving some women, who may have made mistakes, a second chance at life. (Not saying all women needing abortions made mistakes. but you get my drift)

I don't see why a bunch of MEN sitting comfortably in their WELL PAID and STABLE jobs, complete with a full EDUCATION have the right to tell a WOMAN who may or may not be able to AFFORD TO SUPPORT A CHILD that she isn't allowed to have control over her body.
It's just like, what the hell man.
Her body, her choice.
Once the child is no longer dependent on her body however, it's a different story.

kylec1's picture

I believe that a woman

I believe that a woman should have the choice whether or not to have an abortion, but I think that abortions should only happen under certain circumstances. For instance, if the abortion would prevent the girl from having to drop out of school/become financially burdened/etc.

~~Kyle

felicia's picture

Pro-choice

I belive that an aborted pregnancy, no matter who it's from, is much better off than a baby being born to someone who doesn't want it. There's a girl in the 11th grade at my school who is 7 months pregnant, and she drinks, does drugs, and I've seen her smoke many, many times after school. In cases like that, I think it would have been so much better if she had just gotten an abortion, instead of carrying the baby, and putting the unborn thing through all of that. It's not fair to it, and it certainly can't be fair to her because you can tell she doesn't want that child.

That being said, I would never get an abortion, because I'd much rather give it up for adoption when it's born, so someone else who actually DOES want a baby can have it.

dreamers imagine someday's picture

I am against abortion in a

I am against abortion in a lot of cases, you know when the girl is forced to get one. But if it is the choice was the women's and she was doing it for what she believed was the right thing for both her and the unborn child, then I say it is okay. Sometimes I wish some girls would just have an abortion, because the pregnancy is killing her in ways that are more then living. Plus, I have no problems if it was done in the first trimester, but the second and third are a problem to me. I mean at that time, the baby has a chance at living after that time period. And babies are getting treated in the womb at that time too. Plus, if one of you have ever seen the results of a second or third trimester abortion, you will feel really sad, because, well you can tell it was a baby. Then there are those babies who survive the abortion and the doctor, just leaves it to die, I think there is something wrong with that. But if the second or third trimester abortion will save the women's life, it is okay. But if the women can wait, a few more months there is always adoption.

V is the bomb, he blows with anarchy!!!

gaynow's picture

I should point out that

I should point out that saying "just carry the baby until..." Actually carrying a baby is strenuous and dangerous and is not something to be taken lightly.

underdarkness's picture

Wouldn't it be funny of one

Wouldn't it be funny of one side was pro-death and the other was anti-choice? Wait.. that's kind of right.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

rowie's picture

pro-abortion

as others have said...

being pro-chioce is not the same as being pro-abortion. if you are pro-choice you just believe the woman should have the choice. it doesnt mean you agree abortion is ok.

women always have and always will have abortions - the only difference with legal abortions is that they wont have to risk their life getting one.

many christians say god gave people free will so they could make their own decisions - in this case shouldnt they have the decision about whether or not to have an abortion?

personally im pro-choice and i guess i'm pro-abortion too since i can see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with having an abortion.

joemondragon's picture

Lol, the problem is it's

Lol, the problem is it's easier to make bad choices.

"A friend is someone who bails you out of jail; a best friend is someone who stands in the cell next to you and says 'that was freakin' awesome'"
-Dr. Jamie Morris

Leisa's picture

hmmm...

I wonder if those of you on here claiming to be "pro-life" are also abstinence only sex education advocates. I'm just wondering if there would be any interesting connection between the two.

dreamers imagine someday's picture

No, I'm not. I believe you

No, I'm not. I believe you can't stop teens from having sex. But at least, if you can't stop them. Teach them to do it safely, also teach them not to rely on their partner for birth control. I mean, I go to an all girl Catholic school, they actually encourage our parents to consider putting us on the pill and getting their daughters to carry a condom with them. (Seriously can you tell that my school is where they send all the pregnant girls in Catholic schools.) But not only that, my school also teaches safe sex for LGBT kids. I am all for teaching sex ed properly.

V is the bomb, he blows with anarchy!!!

Lol-taire's picture

Then if you've had

Then if you've had comprehensive sex education you know that contraception can fail. Not that it isn't useful- just that's it's not infallible.

And it's not just teenagers that have sex and it's not just teenagers that get pregnant accidentally and it's not just teenagers that have reasons why they can't/ don't want a child.

SOLDoutSCENE's picture

it still doesn't make it right

I mean god I can't imagine how people can be so cruel and kill their own child in such an inhumane way, i mean even if you didn't plan it its sill a part of you, its still a living thing. JUst beucase you can't see it or because its not talking to you and telling you how it feels to be ripped apart, it does not make it okay. Even if it is "just" a fetus. Its sicking how natural we view abortions due to our own selfishness, by saying well it wasn't planned so its okay, No its not, the only time I think its okay is rape other than that its not. Its not an easy fix and we need to stop viewing it as such.
I rather beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission

Lol-taire's picture

It's more inhumane to have

It's more inhumane to have bring a child into the world that you don't want to be yours. Because even if you give the baby away, it's still your child- a part of your thoughts and life forever. You're still forcing a woman to have a child, even if you're not forcing her to bring it up.

Many zygotes and foetuses early in development are aborted naturally by the body anyway. Many women who have such miscarraiges aren't even away they're miscarrying. A foetus is not the same as a human being. It does not possess consiousness.

And please answer this, according to your argument why is a child conceived through rape less deserving of life- of not being 'ripped apart'*- than any other foetus?

*very misleading, few abortions are that late term and then they are almost always for medical reasons.

underdarkness's picture

There's no connection

There's no connection between the two, trust me :P

I have some personal reasons for believing what I believe and despite the words that people are putting in my mouth, I never have said that abortion should be made illegal, I just vehemently disagree with it.

I think it should be legal up to about 2 months into the pregnancy, though exceptions could be for those who are raped, where the baby will have medical complications or if the mother will have medical complications.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

wilma wonka's picture

i'm pro-choice

A lot of people are talking about why women get abortions. My mom works at the Guttmacher Institute which is considered one of the most reliable sources for information on abortion and womens reproductive health. Here's some info on why women get abortions

76% say they're unready for how a child could change their life
68% say they can't afford a child now
51% says they're having problems with a relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood
31% say they're not ready for the responsiblity
31% say they don't want people to know they're pregnant or have had sex
30% say they're not mature enough to have a child
26% say they already have all the children they want or they have grown-up children
13% the fetus has a health problem
7% the women has a health problem
7% the women's parents want her to have an abortion
1% the women was the victim of rape or incest.

if you add up all the percentages you would get over 100 because most women gave more than one reason for having an abortion.

this is from ABORTION AND WOMEN'S HEALTH; A TURNING POINT FOR AMERICA

As for the debate about whether it's murder, i don't think murder is as black and white as if you kill someone it's murder. I'm not entirely sure what murder is but I know that it's not that black and white, nothing is. Read "Of Mice And Men", it also provokes an intresting discussion about the definition of murder. Someone should make a forum devoted entirly to this.

I'm not sure if abortion is murder so here are some other facts that make me believe that abortion should be legal

There are generaly more abortions in countries where abortion is illegal because those countries usualy have more conservative views so they make contraception less readily available so unintended pregnancy rates are higher and therefore there are more abortions. An example of this is Brazil where abortion is severly restricted but 41 out of 1000 women were geting abortions compared to the US in 2002 where 21 out of 1000 women got an abortion. The number of abortions performed are hardly linked to it's legal status, rather to the rate of unintended pregnancy so we should keep abortions legal so that the abortions being performed are performed in a safe and healthy enviornment. Before abortion was legal in the US it was the largest cause of maternal mortality but now it's safer than a shot of penecilin.

This is why I don't understand why some people oppose abortion and widespread availablity and education regarding contraception. Faced with raw numbers that view seem EXTREEMLY hypocritical. If you want to eliminate abortions eliminate unintended pregnancy, if you want to do that make contraception accesable. So how can you oppose contraception and abortion? If anyone has this view please explain it to me because I'm hoplessly confused as to the justification of such a view point.

Abortion is a safe procedure that poses no health problems and all extenive studies on the effect upon mental health have concluded that abortion poses no threat to a women's mental health.

Some people have called women who get abortions unresponsible. The average women spends about 30 years trying to avoid pregnancy. That's a long time to consistanly take a pill. If someone forgets to take their pill for just a few days does that make them irrisponsible. 98% of sexualy expierienced women are responsible enough to use contraception but most women who suffer from unintended pregnany got pregnant in the few days when they forgot to take their pill.

Most women geting abortions are doing so because they don't want a child now not because they don't want the responsiblility of a child. 60% of women having an abortion already have children and 52% want children in the future so they can't be opposed to the responsibliby of caring for a child.

I don't understand how people can oppose abortions on the grounds of religion. Where in the bible does it say or imply that abortion is bad. Also one of the first groups that advocated to make abortion legal in the US was the ALI which 1400 members of the clergy as members. They joined because they wanted to help women, so it seems like the pro-life view goes against the bible.

If you want more information on abortion a good website to look at is www.gutmacher.org

kylec1's picture

The majority of reasons you

The majority of reasons you listed above of why women want abortions, I will concede that they are, to the individual, potentialluy good reasons. However, there are many of us gay men who cannot have biological children who would like to adop children, and with all the abortions, there are not as many children to adopt.
~~Kyle

jeff's picture

huh?

When has there ever been a shortage of children to adopt?

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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Lol-taire's picture

Women have no obligation to

Women have no obligation to churn out babies for the gays. It's not like you can just pop out a few babies and share them around. Having a baby, whether or not you keep it, is life changing. And there may be few babies up for adoption, but there are many, many children in care.

commander147's picture

I think abortion should be

I think abortion should be legal until the 18th year.

I believe that when we leave a place, a part of it goes with us, and a part of us remains. Go anywhere in this place, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while you will hear the echoes of all our conversations: every thought and word we've exchange

cynical1inthecorner's picture

I am completely pro-Choice.

I am completely pro-Choice. Whether or not you personally agree or disagree with abortion is regardless--it is the woman's choice. It should not be mandated, and you should not be able to give a list of circumstances where it's okay to have an abortion. I mean, Lol-taire gave a very good example of a case that did not fit the "only have an abortion if it's incest, rape, etc" train of thought. How can you say her mum should've had the kid?

It's not black or white, people. Whether or not an abortion should occur should happen on a completley individual and personal basis.

And honestly, making abortions illegal won't stop people from having them; it'll just make them all the more dangerous and unhealthy because they're being done illegally.

oldfoxbob's picture

Wow Such comments i read here

Some have good points , some have poor points, Some are backed up with figures and statistics...others are not...I myself have only three questions that I ask of all pro OR anti abortion standing people...
ONE: What should be done with the child if the mother & father dont want it or cant afford it instead of aborting the preg????
The most common answer to that is place the child up for adoption...fine...grand!
Question Two: How many have you adopted?
Most common answer is NONE!!!
Question Three: Since you are saying they should be placed for adoption and have not adopted are not you a oxymoronic person???
(oxymoron: person who says do as i say but not as I do)
The answer to that is simply YES they are...My self personally I have adopted three children..all great kids too...and I am proud of them totally...
So to spout off and say abortion is wrong for any reason is oxymoron...To spout off and say that abortion is the only answer is oxymoron also...So you all have the right answer for you..Your beliefs....your wants and needs...Remember only you could make the decision on abortion...there is no right answer from another person ...only "YOU" can come up with the right answer on this question.

Genius is not a sign of intelligence, but rather
that of common sense.

Lol-taire's picture

You mean a hypocrite (just

You mean a hypocrite (just to be facetious)

If one believes that aborting a foetus is murdering a child, then it is an obligation to speak out to stop it at all costs. If abortion is murder then it stops being a case of individual choice and becomes an issue of public morality in it's most fundamental form. If abortion is actually murder then there is only one side to the argument, there is no debate.

It's very easy from a pro-choice platform to talk about individual beliefs and individual needs- that's what underpins the concept of being pro-choice. But if you are pro-life because you believe a foetus is a human being then there is no possible compremise, you can't leave it down to individual judgement anymore than you could accept that an individual had the right to chose to commit any other murder.

So the two sides in the abortion debate are arguing from completely different frameworks and working with two entirely different concepts of why human life is valuable.

If I believed a foetus was equivilent to a child then I would be out there bombing abortion clinics.

underdarkness's picture

I don't see a fetus as being

I don't see a fetus as being a child, I see it as a POTENTIAL child, which is different.

I'm sorry (well, not really), but if you have sex you know what the result of that might be. If the fetus can turn into a child, it's not right to abort it. That's just my opinion. I certainly understand why a woman would WANT an abortion, but that doesn't make it right.

A message to all of you out there: Just because you're gay doesn't mean you have to be uber-liberal. A middle ground is always nice.

- One Nation, Under Darkness, with liberty and justice for white, heterosexual, rich, Christian men

Lol-taire's picture

So why is a potential child

So why is a potential child deserving of protection?

The fertilised zygote is a potential child, all the genetic material that forms the potential for a child to form is present. Is this the point at which the cell is becomes deserving of protection?

And in the UK being pro-choice isn't synonymous with Liberalisim in the same way as it is the the states.

Anyway there is very little middle ground on abortion.