Date Rape

Fox's picture

Just posting this for everyone, I know you hear about this stuff, and think that it happens to other people but not to you, well last night, I was at this guys house, he had told me he just wanted to be friends, we had hung out a bit, anyhow, he started making mix drinks, and kept encouraging me to drink more, when I was about to pass out he told me that I could sleep on his bed, and he'd sleep in his friends room (the friend wasn't there). I passed out on the bed, and woke up at 1, still pretty hammered, he was lying nude next to me groping me, I got up, told him to fuck off, and went and passed out on the couch, as soon as I got up in the morning, and I got my stuff together and got out.

Just be careful what you're doing, and who you're with, shit like this shouldn't happen, but it does, so just be careful.

Disney's picture

Yikes that's scary! It

Yikes that's scary! It sounds so wrong to mess around with someone while they're asleep or drugged, unless you're in a committed relationship and the other person wouldn't be offended.

Glad you're ok, remember that alcohol not only gets you in a messy state of mind, but it does cost money and messy states of mind = trouble. If you're in a position where you seemingly have to go shot for shot with someone (or a drinking game or whatever) then really consider later how you could've avoided that, since you only ever want to imbibe by your OWN motivation. Someone else shouldn't dictate your drinking or even drugging habits when they aren't going to have the mental fallout or physical danger later.

jeff's picture

Hmm...

I'm sort of the school of thought that if I'm in the apartment of someone I barely know, where sex is a possibility, and we are drinking, the longer I stay, the more I'm consenting to possibly having sex with him by my actions alone.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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shadow fire's picture

You should

be able to go to who fox perceived as a friend and drink without being raped.

joemondragon's picture

agreed. sometimes

agreed. sometimes responsibility doesn't lie (haha) with the victim

"A friend is someone who bails you out of jail; a best friend is someone who stands in the cell next to you and says 'that was freakin' awesome'"
-Dr. Jamie Morris

shadow fire's picture

lol

Very punny -_^

jeff's picture

Given Fox's recent bout of...

meeting and messing around with a lot of boys from online, my sense is this guy is someone he just met who said he wanted to be a friend, which isn't really equivalent of being an actual friend. Hence, calling it more accurately... this is a stranger, no matter what their ultimate interpersonal aspirations.

So, I'm sticking with my thinking that if you meet someone you don't really know, and start drinking and spending the night at their place, then you put yourself at risk for such drama.

Also I think if you get yourself really drunk in such a situation, it is really going to end up in some future setting to play itself out sexually.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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Fox's picture

I didn't meet him online,

I didn't meet him online, and all my online hook ups have been completely rape free, fun encounters.

jeff's picture

Well...

Whenever you have immediate sex with someone you remove the need for them to push you in that direction through other means. :-)

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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joemondragon's picture

Why would it be Fox's fault?

Why would it be Fox's fault? Being drunk shouldn't mean rape. Even if sex were a possibility, if you make it plain and clear that you don't want sex, then no matter how wasted you get, you should be able to crash without the guy you were drinking with raping you. btw, Jeff: you have amazing rhetoric. It's hard to keep up with you sometimes, lol.

"A friend is someone who bails you out of jail; a best friend is someone who stands in the cell next to you and says 'that was freakin' awesome'"
-Dr. Jamie Morris

jeff's picture

Well...

I just know way too many people over the years who specifically use alcohol to remove inhibitions. I'm not drunk enough to dance yet. That guy's cute, I'd better drink more to get the courage to approach him, etc. One of my most recent tricks kept saying "You should probably go home," as we walked toward his apartment, but since we kept making out in between him saying this, and his hands clearly not siding with his brain/mouth, I didn't. He stopped saying that when we were inside, though.

I'm more in line with Camille Paglia on this issue. Here's her in a speech on a heterosexual date rape case:

"The girl has met the guy once before, this is the second time she met him, they were at a party, she invites him back to her room, its three A.M., she falls asleep, and then suddenly something happens, and she charges him with rape. Now, pardon me, wake up to reality! This is a ridiculous situation. If a real rape occurs, I will help to lynch the guy from the nearest tree. I will be absolutely ferocious. I will get my switchblade knife--given to me by a reporter, by the way!--I will help track down the rapist and punish him. But this sort of thing is disastrous. We cannot have this, these white middle-class girls coming out of pampered homes, expecting to do whatever they want. They don't understand what's going on, that there's a sexual content to their behavior, that maybe there's a subliminal sexuality, a provocativeness in their behavior. "Don't say 'provocative'! Because then you're blaming the victim!" Well, women will never be taken seriously until they accept full responsibility for their sexuality.

We have got to let the mind open freely, freely toward sex, and understand that from the moment you're on a date with a man, the idea of sex is hovering in the air--hover, hover, hover, okay? I'll tell you what I'm bringing back. I'm bringing back lust!"

I've heard her be more eloquent and concise, but you should get the gist from that excerpt.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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Fox's picture

I love how I said that I

I love how I said that I didn't meet him online, and I had known him before the day of the encounter, but you keep ignoring that little fact so that you can pin blame on me. I had been hanging out with the dude for a few weeks before he date raped me. I didn't meet him online, and it wasn't our first time hanging out, or even close to first. I'd also like to believe I'm not naive in thinking that two gay guys can be friends without their being a sexual aspect to their relationship.

jeff's picture

No...

We stopped talking about you specifically (I did anyway) a while ago, now it's about the issue in general.

I haven't mentioned your name or situation for quite some time in this thread.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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Lol-taire's picture

Oh piss. This line of

Oh piss.

This line of thought would never be extended to crimes other than sexual assualt; a theft would still be a theft is the victim left the door unlocked.

Yes, an individual should exercise caution to avoid putting themselves in the sort of situation where they are vulnerable, which is what Fox was saying. It doesn't mean he was responsible for what happened, perhaps he was naive and perhaps it was an error of judgement, but that's not the same as saying he had implicitly consented to sexual activity or that the other guy's behaviour is justifiable.

A situation where both parties are chemically impaired (and conscious critically), that can be ambigious and I'll concede that Camille Paglia- who I can't say I hold in particular high opinion anyway- has a point there. But sexual assualt is very rarely big scary strangers leaping out of the bushes and raping nuns, so Paglia will have a long wait before she gets to use her switchblade.

jeff's picture

Err...

And lines of thought used for murder are not used to dissect traffic laws...

I don't think I've ever stated, in any post here, that the other guy was justifiable in any of his actions. He was completely in the wrong. I just don't believe in pulling the victim/blame card after a series of bad decisions that put you in a room with someone like that.

I just don't like the absolution people seem to get afterward by saying the other party was wrong, and walk away from it without some sense of personal responsibility, because I think that sort of thinking will only get you in that same situation again. Of course, the person will be wrong next time, too. So you do have that going for you... just seems to be a bad cycle.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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Lol-taire's picture

responsibility for sexuality

I didn't want to put in the main body of my last post because it's not to do with original poster's situation, but I'd like to take futher issue with Paglia contentions about provocation and female sexuality.

I am a middle-class white girl straight out of a pampered home and I take issue somewhat with this subliminal sexuality that we apparently exude so carelessly and refuse to be take responsibility

Now I not stupid enough to argue that girl's don't sometimes dress and behave in a way that is deliberately provocative, and after a certain age they should be mature enough to deal with the attention this brings or else behave differently.
But equally just by being a young woman you provoke a sexual response in men even without behaving or dressing provocatively, and you can't take full responsibility for it because it's out of your control.

I'm not especially pretty- if anything I'm rather on the plump side and I have a funny chin, but I'm young, have honey coloured hair, blue eyes and big tits. And I can assure you I don't act in a way designed to attract male attention, but I still get it and it's not always pleasant- sometimes it's deliberately humiliating and even threatening, and occurs outside of sexual situations/ locations (ie not in bars and nightclubs).

It's not a case my failure to control or accept my sexuality that denies me respect, it's a case of respect being denied to me because I'm seen in only sexual terms by some men, especially men from cultures where women are already devalued.

shadow fire's picture

Well

I agree it isn't too smart to get completely wasted with someone you don't know but your original post was a bit off from what you just posted.

"if I'm in the apartment of someone I barely know, where sex is a possibility, and we are drinking, the longer I stay, the more I'm consenting to possibly having sex with him by my actions alone."

I still don't think your consenting to have sex with them just by drinking with them.

jeff's picture

No...

It is the drinking AND the shared sexuality AND the staying that lead toward consent. I mean, yeah, I get drunk and sleep over friends' houses all the time, but I know them we're either not into each other, or have defined whatever our sleep/sex patterns are together (some friends sleep with me in my bed, others on the couch, etc.).

But, you do that with someone you know far less at your own peril, I think.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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shadow fire's picture

I get....

What your saying but, well sometimes people don't think as far into this as you or others would (especially if he was drinking/having fun) and I don't know Fox very well (well I don't know him at all) but I sort of think that if Fox thought it would or could happen he might of drew a line somewhere. But if it was Fox's intention from the sober beginning to go to some stranger/new friends place and get completely wasted to the point of passing out then he defiantly didn't think that out too well.

Disney's picture

I think Jeff posts pretty

I think Jeff posts pretty articulately and from what he said I agree... he didn't post stating that drinking with someone = consent for sex, the quote shows that he is implying that by predetermining to stay (and/or prolonging the time spent in close quarters, edging towards drunkenness in the aforementioned environment), of your own volition; you are in fact knowingly promoting the chance for a sexual encounter.

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jeff's picture

Yeah...

The quote I couldn't find (as I think it is from a Camille Paglia video I have here that I keep intended to upload to YouTube) is how she talks about how gay men have a culture of owning what happens sexually in their lives, and don't start blaming others for the situations they get into. They own it, dust themselves off, and accept that as part of the environment in which they play.

Good to see someone didn't boil down what I said to merely "drinking = consent." If my thinking were that reductive and I really believed that, I'd have a much more active sex life on both sides of the equation... were I to be so lucky, heh.

Alas, I prefer to be someone's sober choice than their drunken mistake, although it's a blurry line sometimes.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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Fox's picture

My bad, I was on the verge

My bad, I was on the verge of passing out, but clearly I should've gotten in my car and driven home, lol.

StateOfTheOnion's picture

When a person engages in

When a person engages in sexual behavior with a person who is passed-out drunk, that person who is passed-out drunk is not giving consent to the person doing the raping.

It would be different if the drunk person were equally engaged in the sexual action. However, a person who is asleep cannot engage in sexual action by chocie. They're sleeping....

I think we are all responsible for ourselves, but groping a person who is obviously passed out is wrong. They are a perpetrator. The person passed out is the victim.

Oh, but boys will be boys! *rolls eyes* I really can't stand people of that thought camp, which seems to be Jeff and that lady he quoted.

"Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it just to reach you..." John Lennon

jeff's picture

Yes...

If I read my thoughts as being that simplistic, i would disagree with them, too.

---

"Be like a postage stamp. Stick to one thing until you get there." -- Josh Billings.

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