Interesting Article I Found Last Night On AfterElton.com:

ElvenKnight's picture

http://www.afterelton.com/people/2009/6/butch-it-up?page=0%2C4

there are two main types of gay men out there,

Men who strive for equality

and Men who's main concern is being " utterly fabulous"

Comments

Nanook's picture

What about the men who want

What about the men who want to strive for equality while being utterly fabulous...?

ElvenKnight's picture

nothing wrong with that

theres nothing wrong with having "a little flair" one just can't focus on their own "fabulousness" and let everything else take a back seat.

Nanook's picture

What's wrong with being

What's wrong with being superficial? Everyone rails on it, but it seems pretty successful. Just look at the music industry.

jeff's picture

Hmm...

Maybe they shouldn't, but they certainly can. ;-)

That said, when there are political marches in SF, I see the club kids, the drag queens, the leather men all out in force. The middle of the road gays? Not as much.

---
"People who are happy are slugs... They do not move the human race forward."
-- Camille Paglia, on Oasis

jeff's picture

Err...

Are the link and your commentary unrelated? Cuz I didn't see anything in the linked article that said what you're saying...

There aren't two of anything.

---
"People who are happy are slugs... They do not move the human race forward."
-- Camille Paglia, on Oasis

ElvenKnight's picture

meh

Jeff: The tone of the article is more
" Why Can't We All Just Get Along" but the article clearly insuates that MANY gay men feel as I do.

jeff's picture

Yeah...

But my takeaway is the article felt gay men who feel like you do were part of the problem, no?

If you need to redefine the gay community to be a part of it, you're in for disappointment. sort of like the people who get their panties in a twist over gay pride every June...

---
"People who are happy are slugs... They do not move the human race forward."
-- Camille Paglia, on Oasis

Lol-taire's picture

I think the article was less

I think the article was less "why can't we all just get along" and a bit more that men like you a part of the problem- or at least are very much trapped in the same social conditioning that contributes homophobia (and misogyny) in the first place.

I do sympathise with you. I spent years being flattered when people thought I was straight- and revelling in the acceptance of my straight friends. Before I 'came out' when I was 15, I made sure to grow out my hair. I started shaving my legs and I started to dress more like my peers. When I was 17/18 another self loathing gay boy- a childhood friend- would act like my pseudo-boyfriend and I was so glad when people thought we were together. I craved being normal. I was nominally 'out'- but at the price that I gave up any actual lesbian sexuality.

And now I'm 20 and have only recently started to realise that by playing the straight girl I stunted my chances of actually having relationships- of having my sexuality actually mean anything other than some cerebral thing that I agonised about anyway.

Don't do the same thing. Don't rationalise your disappointment, or ambivilence, or even just fear and lack of knowledge as being somehow superior to the people who are comfortable with not conforming to the standards of heterosexuality.

Ask who exactly it is you want to be equal to?

swimmerguy's picture

Hey!

I don't agree with the "if I was attracted to feminine behavior, I'd be with a woman" thing. I think guys are amazing any way they are!

If you're going through hell, keep going. ~Winston Churchill

ElvenKnight's picture

geez...

I'm sorry, i was unaware that gender atypical behavior was a PREREQUISITE to claiming a homosexual identity. wtf is wrong with you that you think gays who choose to conform to gender typical behavior are not gay enough.

I'm gay. I don't hide it. but I usually dont wear my orientation on my sleeve either.

jeff's picture

Hmm...

I fail to see who you're responding to here... no one said that.

---
"People who are happy are slugs... They do not move the human race forward."
-- Camille Paglia, on Oasis

Lol-taire's picture

No-one is saying that. But

No-one is saying that.

But the point isn't that you you chose to conform to 'gender typical' behavior, it's that you look down on those who don't.

And although- no it's not a prerequisite for being gay, if you are gay a lot of the 'gender typical' behavior that straight people find themselves stuck with ceases to apply. You have to wonder why you would be a stickler for the rules of a game you've already lost.

No-one thinks you hide your sexuality. It's just everything you've written on here suggests you are uncomfortable with it- yours and other people's.

It's normal. It's just hopefully not going to be the way you see these things forever.

Nanook's picture

Er... I think it's more that

Er...
I think it's more that androgyny, or for that matter gender, has in relative terms, nothing to do with sexuality - specifically homosexuality - and that to assert that an "androgynous" or "feminine", yet male (as in sex), homosexual as being any less homosexual than the "masculine" males (once again, as in anatomical terms) is ridiculous, unfair and socially unjust.

Personally though, I think that "Gender" is a spectrum without polarity; one in which an individual can occupy multiple positions. Thus, "gender" is in reality, typically superficial when looked upon in terms of its true identity as a social construct. I certainly don't pay much attention to it. Then again, I don't suffer from any thing remotely like gender dysphoria, so alas, I have a slightly biased outlook.

ElvenKnight's picture

Oh?

"If you need to redefine the gay community to be a part of it, you're in for disappointment. sort of like the people who get their panties in a twist over gay pride every June..."

"I do sympathise with you. I spent years being flattered when people thought I was straight- and revelling in the acceptance of my straight friends. Before I 'came out' when I was 15, I made sure to grow out my hair. I started shaving my legs and I started to dress more like my peers. When I was 17/18 another self loathing gay boy- a childhood friend- would act like my pseudo-boyfriend and I was so glad when people thought we were together. I craved being normal. I was nominally 'out'- but at the price that I gave up any actual lesbian sexuality. "

I am proud of my sexuality. It means something different to me than yours does to you. Why is that a problem?

Lol-taire's picture

What does your sexuality

What does your sexuality mean then?

ElvenKnight's picture

it means

that im attracted, physically, emotionally, and romantically to other men.

"And although- no it's not a prerequisite for being gay, if you are gay a lot of the 'gender typical' behavior that straight people find themselves stuck with ceases to apply."

One level yes. The person I cuddle with in the back row oof the cinema is is a man rather than a woman.

on another no. As a lesbian woman, one may assume that you use very little, if any cosmetics.

I on the otherhand may be gay. but I'm still a guy. Men typically do not wear makeup.

Nanook's picture

What defines a male? Is it

What defines a male? Is it his actual physical biology - the fact that he has testes and a penis? That he's capable of producing sperm?

Or, perhaps, is the social construct which is "gender" the true definition of what a male is? Mind you, I'm referencing a social construct which is a completely manufactured concept (in contemporary terms, of course), which is being constantly challenged on more and more levels everyday? Is that really our definition of a male? Joe-shmoe who works in an invest firm, perhaps a hedge a fund, drives a cadillac, has 2.2 children, a wife named betty, lives in suburbia who comes home to eat steak and mashed potatoes with a beer overnight - is he really our definition of "male"?

I think you know the answer. And now, let me pose this to you: do you really want to be backed into a stereotype? And can a single difference in a chromosome cause that much difference in individuals?

Lol-taire's picture

So- swapping 'men' for

So- swapping 'men' for 'women' you're definition of sexuality is very much the same as mine.

The difference is you seem to make a virtue out of being as 'straight' as you can be about it. And disapproving of overt displays of non-heteronormativity*

And I'm telling you that I used to as well. But that you have to ask yourself why you think that this something to feel superior about?

---

Your example of make-up is interesting, since it's such a culturally specific marker of gender and I'm not sure what you mean it to prove. I'm a lesbian, yes. But clearly I'm still a woman. If I didn't wear make-up then surely it's an example of not feeling obliged to follow 'gender typical' behavior. Which is exactly what I was saying.

'Feminine' and 'masculine' are culturally created. To step away from- or even just look critically at- masculinity doesn't necessarily mean you adopt femininity (since that's just as articificial) or vice versa.

*lord alive it's like being in a gender studies textbook, but forgive it this once.

ElvenKnight's picture

stereotypes

“The difference is you seem to make a virtue out of being as 'straight' as you can be about it. And disapproving of overt displays of non-heteronormativity”

By “…..As straight as you can be about it,” I think what you mean to say is my refusal to conform to a gay stereotype.
As straight as I can be about it? Hah!
Tell me… What is is so straight about me snogging with another man?
So, maybe I don’t like stereotypes… Effeminate gay men bother me in much the same way I get annoyed when my Mother pinches pennies.

toreador_18's picture

Geez man, lighten up!

No one is expecting you to don a set of heels. You are in no way obliged to. Nor are you entitled to dictate how we should behave. Should I put this all in bold capital letters?

If this fails to get through to you (and as I've been keeping track of your posts, it no doubt will not), I suppose it's too bad. There will be considerably less color in your life...as gray-scale as it already is.

I'm not letting you rain on our parade. I don't seek to make anyone more comfortable and I don't intend to start now.

Hear, hear:

Noogies to you, bub.

ElvenKnight's picture

People Can Do What They Want

I challenge you to provide me with an example of my having EXPLICITLY said so otherwise.

What I have been railing against is this: the complete inability of so many in the gay community to be able to distinguish between gay CULTURE and gay ORIENTATION..... I love Rocky Horror, I haven't seen it but i would probably enjoy Hedwig & The Angry Inch too.

jeff's picture

easy...

I just searched on the word can't:

"one just can't focus on their own "fabulousness" and let everything else take a back seat."

So you say people can't be explicitly fabulous, which may be what they want, no?

---
"People who are happy are slugs... They do not move the human race forward."
-- Camille Paglia, on Oasis

ElvenKnight's picture

not really.

:
Can't "
as in
" Ideally I dont think they should",
as in " This just happens to be my opinion"

which is.

a far, far, cry from

" there ought to be a law against it"

Tophat's picture

I think...

That you can't accept that you made a fumble.

Why not just admit that you may have made a mistake and move on? That's a good lesson to learn.

I was once exactly like you, and now I'm a flaming effeminate gay myself. Things change. Time to get over your own opinions or get over yourself.

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

ElvenKnight's picture

no & yes

Tophat: The only thing I have had to apologise for is for at times not being as tactful as I could have been.
Gender Queer is your culture, not your orientation. I shouldn't have to apologise to you or to anybody else for it not being mine.

Lol-taire: I've been thinking about what you had said and i realise that i made a faux pas. Where you were able to seperate not embracing every aspect of traditional feminimity from total rejection of feminimity. For masculinity, I for whatever reason was not able to do the same.

Tophat's picture

I just thought I'd let you know...

And this is not at all meant to be rude,

Gender queer is my gender identity, not my culture. I embrace the gay culture, but there's a difference. Gender and orientation are also different, though related.

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

ElvenKnight's picture

hmmmm....

sooo,,,,,, you don't see yourself fitting into the gender binary?

Tophat's picture

That would be correct, yes.

I'm guessing the term effeminate or feminine is going to show up?

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

ElvenKnight's picture

I Get You

you get enough shit piled on top of you already, you don't need anybody, let alone another gay person to add to the pile.

On THAT ground, yes.

i'm sorry......

I have a question though,

what is it about the gender binary system that you find unsuitable?

Tophat's picture

I'd tell you...

If I could explain it.

But here's the thing. How does one know one is a male? How does one know one is female?

I know that I do not feel that I fit into the binary, therefore I reject it.

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

ElvenKnight's picture

Feel Your Crotch???

thats one way.

Why should you overcomplicate things for yourself?

Would it not suit you to plainly identify as a male, who just happens to enjoy crossdressing?

Tophat's picture

I don't think you understand...

How very ignorant you just sounded.

There is a difference between sex and gender. I happen to be male biologically, that is my sex. But I do not consider myself a male as my gender, so that is the way it is. I do not consider myself a female either.

Cross-dressing has naught to do with it.

I'm not over-complicating anything. This is who I am. Can you not understand that?

If not, you really are as bad as those idiots who ask me why I can't be normal.

Take it from me. You don't know what you're saying.

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Nanook's picture

Er... The Bem studies of the

Er... The Bem studies of the 1970's and 1980's concluded that 25% of each sex (sex is in reference to one's anatomy) is "undifferentiated" (otherwise "gender-neutral), and another 25% is androgynous. That leaves us with 50% of each sex matching their gender. So, isn't that reason enough to assert that the polarity of gender is truly unrepresentative of people in general?

And in any case, "gender", as well as "gender roles" are both pure social constructs - they're both manufactured concepts with relatively to absolutely no basis in science. So why should we box ourselves into a position dictated by society? Then there's the people who inhabit more than one space in gender spectrum, such as two-spirits (individual who fulfill multiple gender roles whose existence is traditional in Native American and Canadian First Nations indigenous groups).

ElvenKnight's picture

still

i dont buy into this " gender binary is an oppressive system" deal.

one can bend genders sure, but the genders they bend to are male or female. there are no others.

Tophat's picture

Well,

That's your problem, not mine. I don't care what you believe, this is what I believe. Deal with it.

It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

ElvenKnight's picture

real

mature.....

Nanook's picture

And I still don't buy your

And I still don't buy your "gender is sex" deal. They're two completely different concepts - gender inhabits the mind, while sex inhabits the body. To my recollection there isn't a metaphorical and non-material penis or vagina which denotes gender. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true to say that gender is something that transcends the physical, inhabiting something of more complexity, which resonates on our deepest level of personality? If so, to lock individuals out, or in, based on a silly social construct which amounts to a label and ever weakening gender roles (in the past two decades, distinct gender roles have faded, with most migrating to become androgynous) is ridiculous at best. And anyway, half of the United States population isn't even the gender of their sex! And that was in 80's!

And you still haven't actually touched on the my conviction which clearly states that gender is a spectrum without polarity, with my background/proof being the existence of a class of people known as "two-spirits" who have manifested in North Eastern Woods Indian with relatively little to zero Western-influence. This also cements the nation that gender is social construct because two-spirits don't transcend cultural boundaries (at least to my knowledge).

ElvenKnight's picture

call me naive if you wish

but i have no interest or desire in dissecting gender to such an extent,

It's not what I came here for.

Nanook's picture

Then don't make statements

Then don't make statements or assumptions about it.