I AM A SOCIALIST, NOT A COMMUNIST.

Tophat's picture

I've been accused enough times of that, so here goes.

Communism is a false form of socialism.

I now quote the Socialist Party USA:

Under capitalist and authoritarian "Communist" states, people have little control over fundamental areas of their lives. The capitalist system forces workers to sell their abilities and skills to the few who own the workplaces, profit from these workers' labor, and use the government to maintain their privileged position. Under authoritarian "Communist" states, decisions are made by Communist Party officials, the bureaucracy and the military. The inevitable product of each system is a class society with gross inequality of privileges, a draining of the productive wealth and goods of the society into military purposes, environmental pollution, and war in which workers are compelled to fight other workers.

That says enough for now, I'm too brain dead to go any further.

Comments

Nanook's picture

What about a

What about a non-authoritarian communist state...?

Uncertain's picture

Tophat, I think most

Tophat, I think most communists start out as socialists until it gets put into practice.

Wolfcry's picture

Sorry guys but I am Anarchy

Sorry guys but I am Anarchy through and through...

Listen to the howling winds of your heart, and if the beat moves you, dance. "I wanna heal, I wanna feel, what I thought was never real!"

Lol-taire's picture

Most socialists are

Most socialists are communists with a small 'c'.

Soviet Union was state capitalist. Or you can argue it was a degenerated workers' state. Whatever it was it wasn't socialist.

ferrets's picture

hmmmmm

communison isnt so bad in my opionen...

experince the awe and mystery that reaches from the deepest inner mind to the outer limits!

lamb_da's picture

how funny

we were learning about the -isms in mod.wrld hist today...:) haha

Hi, I'm a reading Rainbow! :)

swimmerguy's picture

Hmmmmmm...

Communism looks very nice on paper. But one of the assumptions it makes about human nature is that people will work for no immediate result. People in a communism have to work as hard as they can, but they may see a guy who's working only HALF as hard, and getting as much food and materials as everyone else.

"I bust mine so I can kick yours" ~ design on a swimming t-shirt

ElvenKnight's picture

,

Nanook: What about it??? A non-authoritarian communist state is pure fantasy. Its never happened, nor will it EVER ....
Swimmerguy is right, capitalism has its pitfalls but it is the only system that is in tune with human nature

"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

Tophat's picture

Capitalism...

Is in tune with the evils of human nature, not the goods. It encourages the evils. That is the problem. Socialism (NOT communism, VERY different) encourages the goods and altruism of human nature.

I won't argue with you. This is the last post I will make concerning this topic on this thread.

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I love you.

Nanook's picture

Encourages? More like

Encourages? More like forces. I certainly didn't volunteer to pay Employee Medical Taxes, Social Security Taxes, Federal and State Income Taxes, Estate Taxes, Title Taxes, Inheritance Taxes, Sales Taxes, Property Taxes, Cellular Taxes, Excise Taxes and Capital Gains Taxes...

Uncertain's picture

Socialism would still have

Socialism would still have taxes. Most left wing parties closer to socialism actually increases taxes. The right wing parties that favour corporations and capitalism actually decrease taxes.

Left-wing (more socialist) governments have much more control over supply and demand, rations, and things like civil planning. Since the government will have to fund everything instead of private companies, taxes would actually be much higher in a "socialist" country.

It's the government taxing you not the companies. And socialism has a bigger government in the way that it has more control and plays a bigger role.

Nanook's picture

Yes, I realize that all

Yes, I realize that all government depends on revenue, chiefly taxes, to survive. However, I was simply saying that altruism isn't a volunteered thing - people don't go out of their way to help society. Hence taxes - the government has to force people to do the "good" thing.

Lol-taire's picture

So, the past 200 years of

So, the past 200 years of human history are our apotheosis?

200 years out of 200,000 and this is what, the peak?
We'll do no more?

Nonsense. Ahistorical nonsense.

Nanook's picture

Totally read "apotheosis" as

Totally read "apotheosis" as "apoptosis" and I was REALLY confused for a short while. I was like... Humans have been blebbing to death for the past 200 years? This is news to me.

Nanook's picture

So we shouldn't try?

So we shouldn't try? Besides, all communism seeks to do is abolish the state, or rather, remove the necessity of it. It seeks to create a non-systematic system where people are automatically provided for. Would it be less scary and bad if we called it "Thoreauism"? 'Cause Walden and his commune project predate the Communist Manifesto by a decade or so.

Also, f human nature is solely concerned with self, then why do we do democracies flourish? If anything, anarchy would make the most sense, because you can do anything without repercussion from the state due to its absence.

Human nature is too much of an abstract thing to classify so simply. Yes, it's fundamental is the genome, and thus the self. However, our genome has endowed us with the gift of thought, hence human nature being abstract.

ElvenKnight's picture

?

How can one possibly lead a meaningful life when no matter how much effort they put into something, they always get the same result?

"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

Lol-taire's picture

What, a wage...?!? Your wage

What, a wage...?!?

Your wage is by definition not the full value of your labour. How ever much effort you put into your work, you only ever get your wage back. And we can't call be promoted. We can't all be management. We can't all be capitalists.

It's sickening to talk about 'meaning' in life, when for most people alive today they work to scrape their survival.

For the first time in human history we can cure diseases, we can prevent famine, we can provide clean water. And yet peope still die for want of medicine, people still starve, children still shit themselves to death from dirty water.

Capitalism is a fundamentally amoral system. It's served a role. But we're going to move beyond it, because we have to.

You talk as though under capitalism we can all be capitalists. And you talk as though we all live in the first world.

Like asking a slave what use they think freedom will be. We'll work out what makes our lives 'meaningful' when most people aren't dragging themselves through them. I imagine it will be the same old things- kids, lovers, education, music, the arts. The things that make us human- not a system that dehumanises most of us.

Nanook's picture

Because having an income

Because having an income amounting to six digits correlates to happiness how...?

I don't know about you, but my profession isn't dictated by income. I want to be a doctor not because I want to earn a quarter of a million annually, but instead, because I genuinely like to aide people and I excel at maths and sciences. If I were to only earn 50K, I'd still do it. Or even 40K.

Or how about this - I'd do it for jack-diddly.

ElvenKnight's picture

.

That isn't the point. Sure there are always going to be people who maintain a strong work ethic no matter what. The point is, if everybody gest the same reward regardless of how much effort they put in, enough people won't bother to put as much effort into their tasks as they used to and society becomes less efficient.
"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

as for capitalism: Seeking a piece of the pie is not tantamount to greed. Greed is when one seeks more pieces of pie than they need to sustain themselves, inturn leaving others with a less than adequate amount

Nanook's picture

All efficiency is, is just

All efficiency is, is just how well an individual can exploit; be it people, the environment or the system itself. For example, the wealthy profiteer from the misfortunes of being poor, the South was created from the exploitation of African slaves, while the entirety of the United States was created from the exploitations of the natives.

So, if capitalism means being more "efficient", then by all means, count me out. I don't want to work under a system where the money I generate comes from the plight of the masses and the impoverished.

ElvenKnight's picture

,

Efficiency means doing your job and doing it well. I can understand ill will towards plutocracy, but really what is it about meritocracy that you find so damn offensive?

"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

Nanook's picture

Really... So the offspring

Really... So the offspring of RJ Reynolds have done fantastic jobs by doing what... being born? Their "merit" really demands that much wealth?

Or perhaps Richard K Mellon... Whose single claim to fame is a philanthropic trust... Or perhaps Jefferson, who exploited African slaves... Or perhaps Andrew Jackson who exploited the American Indians by taking their lands? That all merits their success - exploiting others or being born into the Lucky Sperm Club?

Meritocracy is just as much a fable as you purport communism to be. Know why else I find it to be utterly repulsive? Merit, by definition, is something completely subjective. Sure, it can be generalized in quantitative terms, but is being a professor of popular culture more important than a farmer? Because society apparently thinks that a college professor has more prestige than an agriculturalist.

ElvenKnight's picture

,

"Really... So the offspring of RJ Reynolds have done fantastic jobs by doing what... being born? Their "merit" really demands that much wealth?

Or perhaps Richard K Mellon... Whose single claim to fame is a philanthropic trust... Or perhaps Jefferson, who exploited African slaves... Or perhaps Andrew Jackson who exploited the American Indians by taking their lands? That all merits their success - exploiting others or being born into the Lucky Sperm Club?"

those individuals are all products of PLUTOCRACY

"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

Nanook's picture

Yes, and their existence

Yes, and their existence remains possible due to what?!

*dun dun* capitalism!

ElvenKnight's picture

>

Would you rather have lived in Mao's China?

"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

Nanook's picture

Where does Mao's China fit

Where does Mao's China fit into this? It certainly wasn't communist. They just thought they were. I guess you could call them fake communists though. fommunists.

ElvenKnight's picture

case in point:

your communism is pure fantasy
"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"

Tophat's picture

We are not arguing communism...

Or at least, not that sort of communism. We are arguing Democratic Socialism. Doubtless you will say they are the same and neither exists, but this is where you are wrong: Human nature is also to protect the whole; as a mother protects her child in order to preserve the overall population, and the men instinctively are protective of women in order to continue procreation.

We are not arguing the communism of Mao's China, we are arguing an ideal socialism.

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I love you.

Nanook's picture

Does somebody here like

Does somebody here like Senator Bernie Sanders?!

Tophat's picture

Bernie who?

I don't know who that is, actually.

Bernie Mac is hilarious, though.

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I love you.

Nanook's picture

He's the only Democratic

He's the only Democratic Socialist of Congress. Ever.

He started out as the mayor of Burlington and during his last term as mayor, he defeated a candidate backed by both the Republican and Democratic parties. Then once Jim Jeffords vacated his seat in the House to become a Vermont Senator, Bernie won the vacated seat. Then once Jeffords announced he wasn't running for a Senate Seat anymore, he decided to run for it. He won with 65% of the vote against Rich Tarrant (he was a fucking jerk).

He's my hero <3

ElvenKnight's picture

>

Capitalism isnt the problem. The problem is un fettered capitalism
"The greenbeans are excellent, pass said greenbeans"