I must Oasisize!

funnyflyby's picture

Last night I didn't solely because my eyes hurt too badly from crying and I just couldn't look at a screen of any sort.
I want to respond to the comments on my last journal, but it was two days ago…
Shneer is just plain awesome. I must say this. Awesome.
I also must say that I suspect that Gennifer is gay or bi. I'm putting it at about a 65% chance. I do have sensible reasons for this, but I don't feel like explaining them. Huh.
Why I was crying- First of all, due to a misunderstanding I am now banned from going to Other's house. This is very bad; that's a place I go to escape my dad's house a lot. It also stung that I was banned because I made a comment that O's mom took as being… sexually offensive… when I would NEVER say something like that. And neither Clueless nor Other stood up for me. Shneer did, though. See AWESOME.
The other reason I was crying being that Bday quite possibly has a boyfriend.
INSERTGUTPUNCHINGANDMARINEMETAPHORS
I hate that I can't get over Bday at all. AT ALL. It's getting worse. Meaning stronger. But- today I managed to 'accidentally' touch Bday's ponytail-bun-thingy. Of Awesomeness. And then at play rehearsal somehow the choreography ended up with Gen and I directly behind Bday… WOOT. Sorry.
I hate annoying you with my stalkerishness.
And.Now.I.Am.Just.Hating.The.Boy.In.Question.
Tomorrow is a SpiritDay of some sort and we're all supposed to wear yellow. I happen to love wigs too much and am wearing a neon yellow-orange one to school. I always dress so ordinarily that it's shocking (and fun) when I get to wear a psychotic wig.
Once I wore a Dumbledore beard…

For some reason despite the fact that my life isn't all that horrible, I cannot feel happy. I can have fun, laugh, smile. I can't be happy. I don't know.
Wow, I'm impressed with myself. I've finished the journal before reaching the DSi limit. Aren't you proud?

Comments

Dracofangxxx's picture

What about boyfriend

Boyfriend is another gender-specific word

why isn't that one banned, huh?

Wouldn't it be gajfriend?

MacAvity's picture

Ooh...

I hate it when you're not happy.

I'll duel the guy for you. Or lend you my sword so you can duel him yourself. Why do I always think duelling is the way to eliminate rivals?

So... here's a long-distance hug for you and telepathic-voodoo-curse for everything bad in your life.

*Hug!*

# % & Telepathic voodoo curse! & % #

funnyflyby's picture

Thanks, MacAvity!

That just made me smile :) As for why you think dueling is the way to eliminate rivals: That's because dueling IS the way to eliminate rivals!
Shelby- Can you stop pointing it out when I use gender-specific nouns? I don't have a problem with those. Pronouns aren't meant to give information about a noun. But, a 'boyfriend' actually means 'a guy someone's dating.' Such as how 'mother' means the female parent. A noun can tell gender in the book of Flyby, as its purpose is to say what the thing is. You can say 'child' or 'adult', meaning 'a non-fully-grown person' or 'a fully grown person'. We don't have specific pronouns for that yet we do have specific nouns. The definition of a noun can include an adjective, including gender adjectives.
Know what I mean? Anyway, most gender-specific nouns have neutral substitutes. 'Boyfriend' doesn't, unfortuately, but most do.
Wow.woW

Dracofangxxx's picture

...What

and "he" is in reference to a person, a male. "she" is for a female. They do the same things as nouns! They SAY WHAT THE LIVING THING IS.

Jesus, make up your mind on what you're going to get upset about using and not.

And I can point it out all I like. If you're really going to get upset over a word, I'm going to make sure you're being realistic and getting upset about ALL words that follow your reasoning.

funnyflyby's picture

Thing is,

pronouns aren't supposed to TELL YOU WHAT THE LIVING THING IS. That's the job of nouns and adjectives, mostly adjectives. I'll return to the example of 'child' vs. 'adult': Say they're both female, you'd refer to them as 'she'. The pronouns don't tell you about their ages, while the nouns do. A pronoun Doesn't Need to Give Information About the Noun. However, if the noun itself is specific in any regard (age, gender, race, etc.) that's fine. It's part of what a noun is. A pronoun doesn't need to do that.
This is my reasoning; I know what I get upset about using and what I don't.
Wow.woW

Super Duck's picture

But Shelby, Funnyflyby is

But Shelby, Funnyflyby is Pronoun Jesus, not Noun Jesus. That means the rules only apply to pronouns!

Dracofangxxx's picture

Oh, yes, dearie me, I forgot!

Nevermind, Funnyflyby, I seem to have been mistaken. Perhaps I should go consult the Noun Jesus, the Outhakiso, and ask Outh to make it Outhfriends!

Dracofangxxx's picture

Ah, actually...

"Woman" is a noun and it doesn't describe age, either. "Human" is a noun and doesn't tell age, sex, or anything else.

The fact that you're applying rules to prounouns is laughable... Did you invent them?... No?...

As you said, it doesn't need to, but some do. The same applies to nouns. Nouns can be general and yet also specific.

I can't even follow your train of thought- Your stories are always changing.

MacAvity's picture

Hmmm...

I'm going to have to agree with Flyby on this one. There's a noun for anything - take people:
Person of unspecified age and gender - Person, Human
Person of specified age but unspecified gender - Child, Adult
Person of specified gender but unspecified age - Male, Female
Person of specified age and gender - Boy, Girl, Man, Woman

For any noun, there is an acceptable equivalent noun of unspecified gender. Even 'boyfriend,' though, curiously, the equivalent in question is very old-fashioned: sweetheart.

There is not a well-accepted pronoun for an antecedent of unspecified gender. Many have been proposed, none have caught on. I actually prefer using gendered pronouns when I know the gender of the antecedent, but when I don't, a problem arises.

Flyby is not 'Pronoun Jesus.' Gaj is just a gajindiak having trouble existing in a society with a language that makes no allowance for a person being anything but male or female.

Dracofangxxx's picture

Of course you agree with Flyby :I

But, if she's allowed to use nouns that refer to gender- Why is she scolding people for using he/she when she's the one with the problem? So her gender is messed up... That's not anybody else's problem. And, actually, unless your chromasomes are really fucked up, there IS no other option. We're male or female physically and that's what he/she refers to. As do nouns. Both nouns AND pronouns have undescriptive alternatives...

So really, you're only proving my point that it's entirely unnecesary for any word to be discharged for applying to sex, because there are alternatives. Maybe her body doesn't match the way she feels- But what can she do about that? She's not a SHE or a HER because her mind is- She's a she and a her because her body dictates that. Maybe it sucks for her, but it's nothing to throw shitfits over and MOST CERTAINLY nothing to say that it makes you want to cut yourself.

If she's going to get so pissy about the fact that everyone else doesn't give a shit about pronouns or gender, then she better go the whole fucking mile because this is really getting rediculous. I can understand feeling depressed about NOT being comfortable in your body- But being upset about the fact everyone else is and that we're okay with being male or female? It's not right.

I admit she's getting better about the whole forcing-it-on-people thing, but I am concerned when someone says that they are unable to feel happy. I believe her lofty goal of removing pronouns may help contribute to the cause.

MacAvity's picture

Okay.

This is making me angry. I really don't want to get angry, because that severely impedes my arguing capabilities. I can easily foresee this turning into the written equivalent of a shouting match. I'll try to respond to your points calmly and reasonably, but I'm afraid anger will eventually win out on one side or the other.

'Of course you agree with Flyby' - Yeah, I guess that's not too surprising. I'm gaj's friend, and another gajindiak as well. I suppose that weakens my credibility, but it also goes toward proving that Flyby's not the only one with gender issues.

'But, if she's allowed to use nouns that refer to gender- Why is she scolding people for using he/she when she's the one with the problem? So her gender is messed up... That's not anybody else's problem.' - I may very well be missing something here (I know a lot has gone on in private messages of which I am ignorant), but I've never known gaj to scold people for using male or female pronouns when referring to male or female people. Gaj only objects to it (to my knowledge) when people use them on gaj, because gaj is not male or female. Similarly, using gendered nouns is acceptable when the gender of the person in question is known. As to 'That's not anybody else's problem,' there are others of us with the same problem, and we're all (even those of us without similar gender problems) here as a support network. One person's problem is the concern of all eir friends. It would only be nobody else's problem if nobody else cared - and that would be a terrible thing.

'And, actually, unless your chromasomes are really fucked up, there IS no other option. We're male or female physically and that's what he/she refers to. As do nouns.' - There is so much wrong with this statement that I don't even know where to start. Hmmm.... I'll start with the intersex thing. Yes, there are intersexed people whose chromosomes are not XX or XY, but there are also intersexed people whose chromosomes are XY (there may be XX, too, I'm not sure). There are plenty of women (yes, they're women) who have some sort of weird testosterone deficiency giving them the bodies and minds of women - and uncommonly beautiful women, in many cases - despite their XY genotype. They're female physically, female mentally, and their chromosomes are male, and not even 'fucked up' male. This is just one example; there are many more, but I'm not really an expert on the subject. Next... he/she and gendered nouns do not refer to physical sex, or to chromosomes. They refer to gender. I just dare you to so much as imply that Riku is female. He will beat you up. Speaking of Riku, how would you define him, physically? At what point does someone like him stop being female in your mind? When he says 'I am male, regardless of my body'? When he undergoes hormone replacement therapy and gets a deep voice and manly hair? When he gets his breasts removed? When he gets a penis? Never? Where do you draw the line? See, even physical sex is not clearly divided into male, female, and those with fucked up chromosomes.

Both nouns AND pronouns have undescriptive alternatives... So really, you're only proving my point that it's entirely unnecesary for any word to be discharged for applying to sex, because there are alternatives.' - I do not understand this statement at all. What are you saying? If you object to pronouns neither male nor female so much, what do you mean by 'pronouns have undescriptive alternatives'?

'Maybe her body doesn't match the way she feels- But what can she do about that? She's not a SHE or a HER because her mind is- She's a she and a her because her body dictates that.' - I repeat my point about Riku, and add that Flyby is doing what gaj can about the fact that gaj's body doesn't match the way gaj feels - gaj is trying to change the language and make the world a better flace for gajindiaks such as gajself. Also that it's not necessarily that gaj's body doesn't match the way gaj feels, but more that gaj's assigned gender role in society doesn't match the way gaj feels.

'Maybe it sucks for her, but it's nothing to throw shitfits over and MOST CERTAINLY nothing to say that it makes you want to cut yourself. - I haven't the authority to speak on the subject of cutting, but I do know that it would help if more people had more sympathy about the fact that Flyby's situation does suck for gaj.

'If she's going to get so pissy about the fact that everyone else doesn't give a shit about pronouns or gender, then she better go the whole fucking mile because this is really getting rediculous. I can understand feeling depressed about NOT being comfortable in your body- But being upset about the fact everyone else is and that we're okay with being male or female? It's not right.' - The issue is not that genders exist and that most people are cisgendered. It's that almost nobody will recognise gajindiak as a gender. When people are okay with being male or female - great. When they're not, they deserve to have that not-okayness respected. Also, your assertion that 'everyone else doesn't give a shit about pronouns or gender' and that 'everyone else is' comfortable in eir body is completely incorrect. Clearly, some people do give a shit, and aren't comfortable in their bodies or their assigned gender roles.

Basically, Flyby's not trying to say that everyone is a gajindiak. Gaj is just trying to say that gaj is a gajindiak. Gaj is defining gaj's own gender - you're trying to define people's gender for them.

Dracofangxxx's picture

Look, I'll put it this way.

If you choose to be transgender and change your sex, that's fine. You're whatever you are. If you like your body, you're fine. But if you're a third gender, you have to respect that your body is something we apply a sex to. No, maybe you don't feel that you are that sex necesarily- But the cold, hard, fact is that people WILL call you a she, or a he, NOT because maybe you're a genderqueer, but because it's just proper for us to do so. It's just the way our language is molded.

Man, that's not hard to understand, is it?

The fact is that your body IS a sex- Even if you don't believe it applies, the cold, hard, fact is that you ARE a woman, or you ARE a man. I have sympathy for the fact it feels wrong, but you can't hide that truth.

This is what I am saying. There is no reason to be upset with the fact you were born a certain sex. In fact, I'd say, be blessed that you at least had the choice to have working sex organs- Some people aren't blessed with that, as you said, about the middlesex people.

Should I repeat it? I RESPECT that you are a different gender.
I do NOT respect having to change my vocabulary to fit your mind when your body displays differently. I accept who you are, but I also have to accept WHAT you are.

There is no need to be upset that your body was born a certain way. It may not be ideal, but at least you were born!

I just hate this animosity for doing what we're used to. It's troubling. I don't think that someone's personal problems should be forced on someone. If I don't want to call her gaj, I'm just not going to- And she shouldn't be UPSET about that. Instead she should just try to be happy when people DO do it WILLINGLY.

So much negativity from this subject makes me want to argue against it- All it's doing is really causing her to feel even more upset about her gender when people refuse to use a made up word from her younger brother

Gajindiak sounds like something a four year old would make up.

Seriously- It just strikes me as immature, everything, the way she goes about it and how she handles anybody refusing it.

And the thing is, people AREN'T all going to want to use it! Most people are going to think she's crazy, in the real world!

So I'm just the tough mom sort of figure making sure she's ready for all the criticism she's going to get.
(at least, that's what I'm trying to do)
because yes, it really does bother me. Not that she IS a gaj, or that anybody is, but everyone's attitude about it.

-Endrant-

and before you guys go all "YOU ARE A HEARTLESS BITCH" on me, I know! But I'm just a happy person treating the internet like real life, and I have the right to disagree. I don't put up with people very well.

funnyflyby's picture

AGHHHHHHH...

Shelby, you are better at making me feel like crap than anyone else in the world at the moment. Congratulations.
I am not trying to remove pronouns, and I'm only becoming frustrated when people refer to ME as 'she', not others. This debate doesn't have anything to do with me; it's about whether my argument applies to nouns as well as pronouns.
I am not upset that others feel comfortable in their bodies at all. Why should I be?
You seem to have misunderstood something: I have no problem with people referring to each other with gender-specific pronouns. I just feel highly uncomfortable when the pronouns are about me. I feel just as uncomfortable being referred to as a daughter, sister, etc. That has nothing to do with my pronoun thing.
I'm just saying that pronouns shouldn't specify characteristics of the noun, and so I use 'gaj' to not specify. If somebody else says (talking about you) 'She commented on the journal', that's fine by me. I'd just say 'Gaj commented on the journal' because I am just using language the way I want. The sentence conveys less information than it would if I said 'she' but there's plenty of info about you that 'she' leaves out. I just don't see why gender is any more necessary to include than anything else.
This is not directly related to my genderqueerity. I'd just like others to refrain from calling me female (or male, for that matter).
If I was perfectly comfortable as female, I would probably end up doing the same thing minus the correcting people about me. I wouldn't have thought of it nearly so quickly, but me aside I still believe in using a gender-neutral pronoun. I don't expect the rest of the world to suddenly decide to stop with gender-specific pronous, especially as they've failed so many times. I use them, though, and I'd like other people to refer to me with gender-neutral terms altogether. The issues are seperate, despite both involving gender-neutral pronouns.
Wow.woW

Dracofangxxx's picture

It's okay-

See, you're getting better at not being upset with my comments. I am proud of you :P

I may not agree with you, but I am proud of you, and I understand a little more, I think...

However, MacAvity's whiteknighting is starting to bother me, considering this argument is between me and you XD

I do remember you being upset, though, that everyone on here was using him's and her's and you wanted everyone to use gaj- and that was something that bothered me. I don't like anything being forcefully shoved down anybody's throats (Againt their will, of course ;) )

I will continue to reiterate the fact that I think you need to not take this thing is so high regard- as you're going to get hurt even more often with it- But the fact you're taking this maturely impresses me.

Have a good day.

MacAvity's picture

Oh, sorry, Shelby, Flyby and

Oh, sorry, Shelby, Flyby and I just made a lot of the same points while I was writing a textbook and Flyby was much quicker. Sorry about all the redundancies.

funnyflyby's picture

Well, you sure sounded much better, anyway.

Shelby, if MacAvity has thoughts they should be shared, anyway. There's no law saying an argument can only have two participants. Also, thank you, MacAvity, first for the whole thing and also because I was rushed and talking on the phone while typing out mine, and I forgot to mention a couple things you did.

Wow.woW

ferrets's picture

hmmmm

i think...it dosnt matter what fly by does as long as it dosnt hurt anyone...
in domestic arguemnets like this, i dont think there is a right or wrong answer.

"loving man and woman in a committed relationship can marry. Dogs, no matter what their relationship, are not allowed to marry. How should society treat gays and lesbians in committed relationships? As dogs or as humans?"