Why God is unnecessary

swimmerguy's picture

Okay, that's not why.

But it's close :P

Anyway, the reason why I'd say God is unnecessary is because of the argument from improbability.
The argument from improbability is usually used in favor for God, although I don't know why...
Look, for example, at what's called usually The Watchmaker Argument, from William Paley's Natural Theology:
In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. (...) There must have existed, at some time, and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers, who formed [the watch] for the purpose which we find it actually to answer; who comprehended its construction, and designed its use. (...) Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.

So, there, Paley is right in a few things.
He's right to say that, if you came upon a rock, you don't really need any explanation for its existence. Because a rock is simple, and the Earth makes them often enough, so rocks are common things to see on the Earth, and it doesn't strain credulity to say that the rock was created and got there by pure chance.

Then, he's right again to say that, if you found a watch lying on the ground, this time more explanation would be needed. A watch is much more complicated than a rock, and uses complex methods to convert energy for a purpose. A rock don't do that.
And so it would strain credulity to say that the watch was created and got there by nothing but pure chance. There has to be an explanation further than that.
In this case, the explanation is design, by a watchmaker, who for this argument will be me, the watchmaker.
I designed that watch, made it, and dropped it there, and that explains the watch's existence very neatly.

But then again, in this case, the argument from design doesn't explain anything, in fact it exacerbates the problem severely, because, while now the problem of the watch is explained, you now have a much bigger problem, to explain my existence, and I'm a lot more complicated than a watch.
Instead of explaining a few gears and a casing, you now have to explain, among other things, the human brain, one of the most complicated things known in the universe.

The theist would then say that there are only 2 possible explanations for my existence, pure chance, and design.
If it strained credulity to say the watch came about by pure chance, it would be ludicrous to say that I came about by pure chance.
And so then the theist would say that I, like the watch, was designed.
This time, by God.

But again, the design explanation has now exacerbated the problem to be much worse than it was before, because now you have to explain the existence of God.
And while the human brain might be the most complicated thing in the universe, God is certainly more complicated than the entire universe put together.

And this time, there is no explanation. God has exacerbated the problem and then left it, with a huge improbability to explain, much worse than me, much much worse than the watch.

The idea that the theory that complex things can only be created by more complex things explains anything makes no sense to me.
Because while that explains everything in the universe very well (Or not so well, for example look at the recurrent laryngeal nerve. It emerges out of your brain, goes down your neck, into your chest, past your heart, around your aorta, then goes back up your neck and into your throat to control speech and swallowing. For Giraffes, that nerve takes a detour of 7 meters, when the actual distance from start to finish is only inches, from the bottom of the brain to the throat. That's not too well explained by design, that's pretty weird, actually), all it does is exacerbate the problem hugely by then postulating the existence of something more complicated than the universe.
The watch just spontaneously assembling itself would have been far more likely.

No, a much better theory is at the very beginning everything was as simple as could be. Just quarks and fundamental particles flying around, and then eventually, after incredibly complex interactions with the 4 fundamental forces over billions of years, all this matter organized itself, and while once it created the human brain, the human brain then created other, less complex things, and those are explained by design, but the design argument doesn't work for the designer, the human brain.
That needs a totally different explanation, and that is evolution.

That complexity exists seems to me that it could only suggest that things organized themselves to get more complicated, and it doesn't even seem that hard, I mean, they had 14 billion years to do it.
Design can be used to explain certain things, but you must use a different explanation for the designer.

A way to see how our opinions have usually been Western Religion'd.
Have you ever heard Pascal's Wager?
Basically, if you don't believe in God, you stand to have eternal punishment. If you do, you only give up finite things in this lifetime.
So the choice is obvious: believe in God.

Uncertain brought that to me not long ago, and I'm disappointed I wasn't sharp-witted enough to say this:
Pascal's Wager is fucking stupid. It makes 2 totally unwarranted assumptions.
1. That God cares if you believe in him, and
2. That God punishes people eternally.
I could postulate any God I wanted to, that said anyone that doesn't believe in him goes to Hell, forever, and by not believing in Him (or Her, or It), and by not believing in him you are incurring infinite risk.
I would certainly hope that God is intelligent and big enough that he'd have better things to do than care if people believe in him, and also that any God who's even slightly loving wouldn't punish people forever, eternally.

That's just an exercise in how we don't even realize how our thoughts are just Western Religion'd.
And we don't even realize.
Goddamnit, these people.
Whatever, I'm tired. G'night.

Comments

hellonwheels's picture

didn't read all that becuase I am lazy

tonight...but nice video chad...is tht what your swim practices are like? lol

Mental wounds not healing, driving me insane, i'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train- the ozzman

Dracofangxxx's picture

Didn't close your italics... :P


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That's redick!

Yamamoto's picture

Why is it that every single

Why is it that every single faggot I know except one seems to do nothing but bash the idea of God... I mean really don't you have better things to do.

Frankly God is not a usless concept becuase the idea of the afterlife gives people who need that sense of comfornt that there souls will go on can have that felling. So they won't be as scared of death. Especially when it comes to themselves or close relatives.

Your reasoning for bashing peoples need for such comfornt is just becuase some idiot decided to insult you about somthing you can't help. Serious tough you need to fucking get over yourself and learn to ingore, becuase frankly this shit is getting old... and I am saying this to any member on Oasis.

I will say it now and I will say it again, I don't tolerate form anyone(Other than myself)insults to anyone for reasons such as what you are doing now, or even if they turned around and insulted you. So seriously... quit whining.

elph's picture

If you feel that their "bashing" is based on...

...erroneous assumptions, engage them... and point out the errors!

Your blithe dismissal of such assertions (bashings) leaves us no bit wiser!

btw... On man's innate(?) fear of death... Is it not possible that religions may have planted that fear? And then offer a means of evading it (iow: a straw man)?

I do not know... but think such an argument could be made...

The fear of death has certainly proved to be a money maker for religions and a device for politically corralling large masses of humanity. :(

Super Duck's picture

" I don't tolerate form

" I don't tolerate form anyone(Other than myself)insults to anyone for reasons..."

I don't usually make fun or you or argue with you or anything, but a stupid comment is a stupid comment. I don't think what Chad is saying is wrong... Some people just aren't religious. I'm not, and I sure as hell can't wrap my brain around the idea of a god. He isn't insulting anyone, he is just stating his beliefs. Now, if he had said that everyone who believes in a god is a drooling retard, then you may have a point, but he didn't, sooo...

swimmerguy's picture

I ain't bashing

the idea of God.
I just like to know why I believe things, I don't want to forget the reasons.
So that's what I use this site for, sometimes, I use it to explain, mostly to myself, my current political or religious views, so that, once it's out there, I can sorta decide if it makes sense to me or not, or if I just haven't really thought the idea through. Cause I have a feeling that many people haven't really thought their ideas through. And I don't like that.

You may notice that I never bashed God, nor religion, nor religious people, at all. I simply stated why I believe what I believe. And yes, to some people, if I gave this to them, it would offend them, but really I think that's a good thing. Cause it shouldn't.
I never made any "insults" at all.

Frankly, I don't know why religion would possible help with fear of death. I mean, the fact that most people think hell exists seems to me pretty fuckin scary. I mean, eternal punishment? As in forever and ever and ever?
Even if I was positive I was going to heaven, just the chance of going to hell would terrify me.
And frankly, I'd rather not live forever, at all.
But I'm not really scared of death, because I know that I was "dead" for about 14 billion years, before I was born, and I didn't suffer the slightest discomfort or inconvenience. Would it really be so bad to go back to that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt5ghXdq6Z0&safe_search=on

Yamamoto's picture

Actually Elph that fear is

Actually Elph that fear is probably one of the reasons that religion was created. To explian things that we cant, and frankly death is still somthing that kind of mystrious sinice once you experiance it is perment. I have a point I am trying to make, but my Aspergers is kind of making it hard to get on paper, like it usally does, so give me the benift of the doubt for this part when I say... do you know what I mean? Because fear of the unknown has been around sinice humans first appered... it is a survival thing.

The Lol thing was quite funny :P Thanks for that it cheered me up and gave me a smile.

The insult comes in the fact that you imply that people who beleive in religon are stupid. You guys keep thinking that you don't do that, but trust me you do it alot... and ethier you are doing it on purpose and denying, or are really bad at controling your implications and don't even see them when they are there... and trust me I had my shirnk read over it today because she wanted to see why I was mad. Plus I think she had the goal in mind of telling me that I was just seeing things that are not thier, but she ended up agreeing with me... so I am not the only one who sees the implying going on in your journal.

Plus I am kind of mad form the Ahesist and Agonist group(Who are known for being rude) at my schools new tag line, where they say to people who sign stuff at thier booth... 'thank you for evovling'... as though people who are religous are 'unevovled'

Oh and this response to my post just proves my point of how every faggot I meet seems to be overly hateful or crictial of relgion. Just as bad as religon is overly hateful or critical of you. Frankly I am just going to check this off of another reason in my book to hate queers... because I am not hanging around people who are just going to hate on people for there beleifs... just the same as you wouldn't dare cacth me hanging around a group of Christians.

Dracofangxxx's picture

I actually do agree with some of it

Chad, you do make religious people sound like idiots sometimes.
Which isn't nice.

It's not nice to be rude to anyone, despite beliefs. I think gays tend to hate on religious people the most merely 'cause their bible says being gay's a sin.

BUT I don't believe it's right to hate on a group of anyone, you should only hate the individual. I'm guilty of this, but I think that's what people should do. Otherwise we're spreading the hate, which is bad.
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That's redick!

swimmerguy's picture

My journal

only sounds mean in the way that anyone who passionately believes what they're saying would.
It's kinda a given, something you can't help, that if you really believe what you say, it'll make the people who disagree sound like idiots.

If giving the reasons why I believe something counts as being mean, I think that's called being close-minded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt5ghXdq6Z0&safe_search=on

RainbowTime's picture

everyones

guilty of hating groups of people..

for example to do show a bit of hate for the so called high & Mighty English (not all English people but just the ones that think there better than the Scots, Welsh & Irish because their English)

i only drink irn bru and the occassional blood of my enemies

Dracofangxxx's picture

Just because "everyone's doing it" doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean it's morally correct, or even okay, it just means it's human nature. As I said, I'm guilty of it. Is hate for a group based on face value okay? No, 'cause you don't directly know every single person in that group. We do it naturally 'cause we've evolved to expect the same thing from people who are a.) Assosciated with the same idea or idealogical being b.) knowingly group and seperate themselves from others and c.) people who have different beliefs than us

It's okay to be wary, or even dislike them if you can't help it, but it's wrong to openly be rude to anyone, despite what they've done to you in the past or what your experiences are. We've come to the point in our evolutionary lives that our social community doesn't need to be disconnected anymore. Religion has faults in the way that it tends to seperate themselves from us (Us vs. Them mentality), but that doesn't mean it's okay for us to do the same, especially when the goal of our community is equality and inclusion.
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That's redick!

swimmerguy's picture

Dude, seriously?

Even if I'm being critical of religion, and even if I was implying that all religious people are stupid, which I still don't think I was doing, is it really that bad?
If I wrote a journal about how I disagree with conservatives, and even how I think they're stupid, would you care?
In our society, for some reason, it'd be fine if I disagreed when someone said "I don't think gay marriage should be legal", but for some reason I can't even tell them why I disagree if they said "I believe evolution isn't true".
For some reason, religious beliefs are protected, when someone says "I believe", after that they can say whatever they want, and you're not allowed to disagree, cause that's "disrespectful".

I'd be allowed to disagree with someone and tell them why I disagree, even, as you say, imply they're stupid for believing so, on anything, if you said something like "I believe drugs should be illegal", then that's fine, I'm allowed to disagree, I can have an opinion.
But if someone said "I think the Earth is 6000 years old", for some reason, even stating facts would be seen as "disrespectful of religion". If I said But radioactive dating of uranium has found rocks and crystals from the Jack Hills in Australia more than 3.5 billion years old!, that would be "disrespectful", just citing a fucking FACT, cause you can't attack "beliefs", no matter how irrational.

So yes, perhaps it implied that religious people are stupid, but only in the way that anything written by a person who truly believes what they're saying would be!
If you truly disagree, write a journal about why you think I'm wrong, why there should be a God.
I swear, I promise, I won't get offended whatever you say about atheists, or even me personally, and if I can't find what I consider a valid refutation to your arguments in a reasonable amount of time, then I'll convert to be religious.

Can't get a better deal than that.

To your last paragraph, the main reason I became atheistic was I began questioning beliefs I had, because when I realized I was a faggot, as you say, and some religions trash on that. So that made me question what I previously thought.
Now I realized there was no reason I thought that, only what my parents had taught me in childhood. Nothing else, no reason, or rationality.
So I became an atheist.
Look at this study:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2036/worldwide-evangelical-christian-leaders...
70% of evangelicals have a negative opinion of atheism.
The main reason I sound mean, probably, is partly because I'm afraid. Atheists are a small segment of the population, and one that's largely seen unfavorably by the rest of the population, as evidenced by that study.
I really, frankly, don't care what other people believe, I have no desire to convert people necessarily, but I will attack people's views without hesitation when they attempt to use their religious majority status to trample over everyone else, especially atheists. That's why I won't hesitate to rip apart creationism, it shouldn't be taught in schools, why I advocate keeping prayer out of schools, and taking God off the money, and out of the pledge.

Yes, if I said this in public, it would be considered "mean", and "disrespectful", but if someone did a public sermon about the evils of atheism, it would be neither.
The only difference?
We're a minority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt5ghXdq6Z0&safe_search=on

Yamamoto's picture

Swimmer guy you are under

Swimmer guy you are under the mistaken assumpition that I am a religous person. I really don't care for it myself. I think that draco got my point across better than I could. Though personally I am quite a bit harsher than she is. It is the fact I will not tolerate people spreading hate in ethier direction... at least outloud. I mean you can hate all you want, but keep it to yourself. I am not trying to sway you to start believing in religon, I am trying to get you to check your tone and start being more polite and don't make it sound like your calling people idiots. I am not going to write a journal offending atheist becuase then I would go completely against the point of my post, which was to stop people form being mean, and speaking in a lauage(No matter how sutble)that contains hate.

I was looking back over your post and I actually found the parts that I can qoute to show what made me think of you as someone who is hating. If you would like I can qoute them and you can explian to me how that is not being hateful?

Oh and actually you can attack beliefs. Becuase frankly to a person who believes them my friend. Those beliefs are a fact.... so just attack beliefs in the same way you would a fact. Try to be less passionate about it and more as in a article type manner. Don't imply that peple are idiots, just start your facts to counter there facts(Beliefs)... do you understand swimmerguy? Just trying to be helpful with this last paragarph :D

Thanks draco for helping me to express my point like that. You said it better than I have so far... :) So thanks for that assist.

swimmerguy's picture

You seem to have

a habit of surprising me often, by me thinking you're something you're not, and then all of a sudden you make a post like this and I actually understand and feel bad. I see now you're not just another religious apologist.

First, well done, reasonably written.

And, well, I would like the sections you say demonstrate hate. Because, personally, I don't see any hate in my writing.
All I see, to me, is me stating my beliefs and why I believe in them.

And really, I think people should be passionate about what they believe. I believe that the universe that we live in is big and beautiful, and far more complicated than it would seem at first glance. I mean, Newton first seemingly described pretty well everything pretty well, in physics, everything that we deal with in everyday life.
But then there's Einstein's Relativity, and Darwin's evolution, and the Standard Model of Particle Physics, all describing incredibly interesting things such as quantum non-locality, and then cosmology, and how big and beautiful all the galaxies and stars are out there, as well as mysteries like dark matter, and just the possibilities.
And to me, it genuinely distresses me that I know religious people who aren't at all interested in that, because they have God, and he describes all that they need, and I just want them to understand that the universe is so much bigger and more beautiful than just that, I want them to have the thrill of understanding things.

And so that does make me passionate. I wish they'd find the wonder and beauty in the universe that I see, rather than just God, everywhere.

My point being, it's never my goal to hate on people that hold beliefs different than mine, in this journal I was just philosophizing about why I hold the beliefs I personally do, and explaining them, so I could understand them better, and so you guys could to and maybe comment on them.
So, I'd like to see the passages that you think demonstrate hate, and I'll see if I need to adjust my methods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt5ghXdq6Z0&safe_search=on

elph's picture

It would be futile!

Your journal and subsequent comments are totally devoid of hate!

Only by quite convoluted reasoning could anyone find any semblance of hate!

An analysis of Yamamoto's reasoning for lashing out at you demands a trained psychologist... but Oasies should note that this is not an isolated instance: hate is very much weighing on his mind. He has repeatedly commented on how hateful he finds gays (faggots!) for their unwillingness to accept him; you were just an easy target!

Dracofangxxx's picture

No problem, buddy!

You're being rather intelligent, and I'm enjoying reading this discourse.

I agree that sometimes Chad needs to counter with facts, not with passion. It's hard to debate, instead of argue, if you put your emotions into it rather than hard facts.
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That's redick!

MacAvity's picture

The 'reply' thing would probably be too confusing, but...

Wow. Yamamoto, your comment (the one starting with 'Actually Elph that fear is') was... really good. I agree with you on all that.

Dracofangxxx's picture

I thought so too.

Except for the parts with "faggots",I thought it was rather well-thought out and stuff.
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That's redick!

Yamamoto's picture

Sorry about that Draco....

Sorry about that Draco.... that more comes form my recent anger at what I feel has been exculsionary type things done do me, by my local homosexual commuity. (Wow that sounded kind of eplhy :P) So really until that issue is resloved which probably won't be for a few years until a movement can be profromed to the place I will probably live for the rest of my life... then I really can't get over that level of hate for being treated so badly and rudely for simply wanting to be include.

See there swimmer, that explianed your reasons with far less hate in my opinion and showed me that the reasons for your passions have good intentions which I do agree with. You don't want people to throw educating themselves in science out the door and just say, "Well I have God to explian everything. So I can just take this cheap way out." That is somthing I can certianly agree with, plus the fact in your post I felt that you where not calling anyone stupid.

I kind of liked the fact that your tone sounded like, "Hey keep your relgions... if that is what you belief that is great, but learn all of this stuff too. Because it is really cool and could make you think about things." I hope I am inteperting your message correctly. Tell me if I am not.

I will put another post up tommorw with those qoutes, because it is like 2:01AM here and I have to wake up for a 9:00AM class :P. I want to make sure I do it right and when I am awake so I will do it then :D

Yamamoto's picture

Elph I am not the only one

Elph I am not the only one who has read this and scene what I am talking about. It seems some other people commenting see it, as well as my psycholigist has seen it and agrees with me that it is thier. So I am wondering if your words come form a point of high and mighty nature? I am detecting alot of underling past problems for yourself Elph with your crictialness towards people of faith. Maybe you should talk to someone about that...?

Oh I want to pose this question to you Elph... If gays are always getting angry and complianing about how people won't accept them? Then why shouldn't I be able get angry and complian about gays won't accept me? Please think of that for a bit ok?

First Post-

"Pascal's Wager is fucking stupid"-Here is the first one. If you are going to make a arugement. Please don't start calling your oppenants stupid, even if it is just one person stupid. Doing this makes it seem like you do hate them.

"I would certainly hope that God is intelligent and big enough that he'd have better things to do than care if people believe in him, and also that any God who's even slightly loving wouldn't punish people forever, eternally." In this part you sounded very sarcastic, and it makes it sound like you are placing a direct insult against a persons deity. Trust me, when I say that insulting someones deity is about the most hateful thing you do to them relgious wise. Trust me I know because I made that mistake with my best friend at my junior college.

Other Post- This is when I think you lost composer in your discourse, so I am trying to be helpful and point it out. :D

"So yes, perhaps it implied that religious people are stupid, but only in the way that anything written by a person who truly believes what they're saying would be!"-This is just on those moments of 'You said it, not me.'

"Even if I'm being critical of religion, and even if I was implying that all religious people are stupid, which I still don't think I was doing, is it really that bad?" Uhmm yes it is bad, so please don't do it... and by that I mean the implying people are stupid part.

"If I wrote a journal about how I disagree with conservatives, and even how I think they're stupid, would you care?"-This one is just a personal commit, becuase yes I would care... I won't let you insult in anyone and call them stupid. Even for there political stance.

There you go I have posted all of the qoutes that I could find which where the most obvious. Plus I put the comments is to help. Please read through them and try to take them seriously. :D

Elph I want to talk to you... though in a PM please :(

Dracofangxxx's picture

Agreeing on the "stupid" thing-

Stupid and idiot and any synonyms are something that really gets on my nerves. Especially if it's an honest insult.

That's what I used to get called all the time in my childhood when I got hit. So. It's something I completely direspect. As soon as part of your argument is "you're stupid", then I immediately just think you're a douche. You're supposed to show me WHY I'm wrong, not why I'm obviously just too dumb to be right.
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That's redick!